Freedom Airlines Accepts J4J.......

[azpilot]

Back to my point though. Not hiring a Freedom pilot because he/she was in a pinch and needed a job is assanine. It also illustrates the mob mentallity that I was talking about before. "Do what we say or else." But hey if you guys want to keep illustrating why unions aren't as wonderful as you think keep posting.

Lot's of people are in a pinch and this shouldn't be used as an excuse to work for a company with unacceptable pay rates and a company that is designed to bust the union of the parent. When you prostitute yourself in the end nothing good comes of it. It doesn't matter if you are in a union or not. I am not a part of a union and would never work for an outfit like Freedom. It is just plain wrong. For the type of equipment that Freedom flies the rates and working conditions should be better. Lots what was promised to the folks at Freedom isn't happening, go figure. Why would you trust someone like JO?

I think you would be really pissed if someone walked up to your employer and said I will do his/her job for less and the employer took them up on it. This is vastly different from free enterprise like Southwest competing with United. You have people that were at Mesa who thumbed their noses at their fellow workers to take a shortcut to get more PIC and fly in "better equipment." You have people that were FO's on a 1900 and are now Captains at Freedom with a senority number vastly lower than those who deserve the opportunity. That will come back to get them and they deserve it.

What about your value? What about your experience? Too bad the general public doesn't know how little flight time some of the Freedom pilots have. They would probably run off the plane. Because when the sh!t hits the fan the pilots lack of experience may come back to haunt them.

People need to quit being so f'ing selfish and think about what is good for the industry as a whole. Don't forget without a union they can fire you with no cause and you have no one to turn to for help.

Whether you like unions or not they are a reality in the airline industry. For the time being if you piss these folks off you will not get hired at a union carrier. Plain and simple.

Just say no to Freedom.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I think you would be really pissed if someone walked up to your employer and said I will do his/her job for less and the employer took them up on it.

I would be upset, but most employers realize that cheap doesn't always mean better. How many here by the cheapest car around versus the best car you can afford? I could have easily bought a 1970 Nova for $100 but would it be the best ride? No. Same goes for employees.

People need to quit being so f'ing selfish and think about what is good for the industry as a whole.

This right here is what scares me the most. Why not just directly quote Stalin and say Each shall give according to his ability and each shall receive according to his need. That isn't the exact quote, but close enough.

 

[azpilot]

I would be upset, but most employers realize that cheap doesn't always mean better.

Uh, what do you think JO is doing? He started a new airline to hire cheaper labor. He obviously thinks cheaper is better.

This right here is what scares me the most. Why not just directly quote Stalin and say Each shall give according to his ability and each shall receive according to his need. That isn't the exact quote, but close enough.

What does this have to do with Stalin? Those that are selfish are the ones taking jobs that do not pay enough, give proper benefits, etc. This is what is hurting the industry. Those that cut corners are screwing the industry not those that try to stay united and refuse to fly for companies like Freedumb.

We will never agree and only time will tell who is right. Take your chances with an outfit like Freedom and see where your career goes. I know that NOT flying at a place like Freedom will never hurt my career. Just ask the losers who failed training and are now back flying at Mesa. Think they have any friends anymore? Nope. They should have been required to quit Mesa and now be on the street.

- AZPilot

 

[earlthesquirrel]

What do you mean when you say "what is good for the industry"? Do you mean what is good for pilots? What is good for companies? What is good for the traveller? It seems that when pilots talk of the "industry" it is almost exclusively means what is happenning to their pay and benefits. Well that is not the industry. To blackball a person for flying for Freedom is just wrong.

What if the pilots at Freedom vote to bring alpa to the property, will that bring them back into people's good graces?

When Skywest takes over routes from Air Wisc. why aren't they all blackballed??

 

[azpilot]

What do you mean when you say "what is good for the industry"? Do you mean what is good for pilots? What is good for companies? What is good for the traveller? It seems that when pilots talk of the "industry" it is almost exclusively means what is happenning to their pay and benefits. Well that is not the industry. To blackball a person for flying for Freedom is just wrong.

What if the pilots at Freedom vote to bring alpa to the property, will that bring them back into people's good graces?

When Skywest takes over routes from Air Wisc. why aren't they all blackballed??

What is good for the industry are healthy airlines that treat all employees with respect and fair wages. Nice pipe dream I know. I would select Southwest as the perfect model. Employees, in my opinion, are paid a fair wage. Employees are happy, customers are happy, stock holders are happy. People like JO only screw up the industry by trying to tear it apart. I said nothing about ALPA and in my opinion NO it would not put the people at Freedom in good graces. Those that were Mesa pilots should have stayed at Mesa and fought to keep the 700 flying within Mesa with one list. The courts have already decided that all of the JO airlines need to be under one list and this will happen with Freedom.

"When Skywest takes over routes from Air Wisc. why aren't they all blackballed?? "

Get a clue for the last time. Did Air Wisconsin start Skywest and then farm the flying out to cheaper labor? No! Is Skywest attempting to bust a union at Air Wisconsin? No! Do pilots at Skywest and Air Wisconsin make comparable wages? From what I understand, yes. Competition by seperate competing airlines is entirely different than Freedom. Freedom was set up under Mesa's roof with the sole purpose of downsizing Mesa. If you don't understand that you understand nothing. Go apply at Freedom and have fun.

I am done arguing this point. As I said by not flying at Freedom I risk nothing with regards to my career. Those that want to good luck.

You seem to have a poor understanding of what people like Jonathan Ornstein are doing to the industry.

 

[hhab]

"What if the pilots at Freedom vote to bring alpa to the property, will that bring them back into people's good graces"

-----------------


I will ALWAYS carry the Freedom List in my bag, no mather what happends.
Anyway, before that happends the pilotgroup must be pis#ed at management. The current pilot group are to much of management "wannabies" for that to happend. Give it a year or two and wait and see, history always repeats itself...At that point JO will start another ununionized company to undercut them, calling them Lorenzo express or something. That ladies and gentlemen was whole point of starting a company like Freedom. NOTHING to do with scope at all..

Comprende?

 

[AAflyer]

Azpilot,

You are right on with your posts. A few of these people still don't get it, it is not just about unions. It is about what JO has done and will continue to do. People will rationalize all they want to get a flying job, especially if it is in a jet.

Suddenly pilot pay is once again the reason for all of aviations prolems. Mangament has been trying to sell this to the public and congress for a while. It seems some of our pilots have been struck by the headlights as well.

The amount of money that UAL was losing would have still been staggering without pilot pay. Failed merger attempt, failed Avolar, and a CEO who couldn't shut his mouth before banks for money caused problems. He screws up royally and gets a multi-million dollar compensation package for leaving, the employees get put on the street and are then told by some of their airline peers that they are greedy.

Delta pilots are paid substancially more than us at AA, yet their losses are considerably less. NWA pilots are paid slightly more than us and they are actually cash flow positive. IT IS NOT ABOUT PILOT PAY!!!!!!!

It is time management takes accountability for their mistakes. It is so easy to screw up and then blame the employees.

As for being paid what SWA is paid, in all due respect they don't fly 777s. If you would like to weight SWA pay to 777 that would be fine, just like some current 70 seat rates are weighted. As for productivity, PILOTS do not make the schedules, I think many would be in favor of a more productive flying schedule. I would!

As for KSUs comments about unions, it is your OPINION and I will respect that, but respect my observation that your experience with this IS limited.

As a union pilot I would like to see a profitable company. I am for all practical purposes married to this airline. I can not jump ship like managment to other airlines without giving up my seniority, or even jump to another business all together like these upper managment morons can do. One day they are running Burger Kings or oil companies and the next day they are airline CEOs who know best.

I would do what ever it took to help out my airline, in return I would like to share in the success when the company does well, not fight for a small percent raise while the corporation posts billion dollar profits. I would like to see fiscal responsiblity. If you would like me to take a pay cut because the company is in such dire straits then stop spending money on putting your logo on sports arenas, stop spending money on lobbying congress to attack your employees rights (RLA), stop making stupid aquisitions and pay DOWN debt when extra money is aviable. Last but not least FIX the business model that you worshiped for years. FIX it, do not cut services and then ask labor to take a cut to make up the diffrence because your still bleeding money.


AAflyer

 

[azpilot]

AAFlyer glad you agree and your post was well put as well.

Peace,
AZPilot

 

[100LL... Again!]

I may be off base on this, but wasn't deregulation the thing that spurred the growth of carriers like SWA, Frontier, etc, and made it possible for the regionals to grow like crazy?

What if the unions at the majors had tried (maybe they did try?)and succeeded at stopping it. Most certainly there would be no competition for their jobs. No furloughs. No scope problems. Bargaining power like crazy.

What a wonderful world. Too bad that 50% or more of us could NEVER EVER hope to fly for an airline. Would we be willing to undo that if we could? We'd sure be helpng them out - protecting the profession...



Solidarity within a pilot group is expected. Not crossing another group's picket line is expected.

But: I don't know that I can ask someone to not take a job because somebody else thinks it's hurting the profession.

Before you think that I am a Freedom-sympathizer, I assure you I am not.

I would not go to work there because I PERSONALLY disagree with the whole situation. I don't want to be what many would refer to as one step away from a scab. That is my personal ethic.
If it costs me a job in the short-term, so be it.

I do think it is wrong to find a group of people who want to fly for a living and make them the scapegoat. ***Unless they cross a picket line.*** You get what you negotiate, as the ad says. If you don't hold any cards, you get screwed.

Welcome to the card game.

 

[hhab]

"Solidarity within a pilot group is expected. Not crossing another group's picket line is expected.

But: I don't know that I can ask someone to not take a job because somebody else thinks it's hurting the profession."


-------------------


Agree, but the problem with Freedom pilots ( that went from Mesa to Freedom ) is their lack of solidarity and their selfishness.
I hope for them ( not really...) that their $ 5000- signing bounus and bypassing Mesas senioritylist ( funny... all Freedom Airline pilots are still on this months Mesa Airlines seniority list, newhires included....and rumor tells me that they still use the Mesa ID to try getting a jump-seat........) to fly a 70 seater is worth the price they might have to pay in the future.

Freedom Airlines IS hurting the profession. They allow JO types to form other alter-ego airlines. That is the reason I never even considered joining them.

Another fact remains. If it was not for those pilots, JO would have to go to the negotiating table, just like most other CEO does, and negotiate payscales for those airplanes, and I'll bet that Mesa would have a new contract by now.

 

[hhab]

Earthsquirrel:"For those who work at Mesa be glad J.O. posts a "paper" loss every year and doesn't have to pay you a pay raise. It keeps you employed. If things are so bad then please leave and find employment elsewhere in this wide open job market."
-----------


WHooaaooo... So what you are saying is that NOBODY should ever get a rise, even if the company is making tons off $$$$.

You Sir, must be Good's gift to management. ( and the reason for communism....)

 

[AAflyer]

100LL,

It is not just our jobs they are gunning for, it is every job. freedom type companies will impact me at my company, and really put a squeeze on the companies like Eagle, ACA, Comair that are flying that type of equiptment.

With the advent of code-sharing and outsourcing anything is possible, and THAT is scary.

AAflyer

 

[Jetscream32]

Did You Forget about CCair?

My biggest problem with the whole Freedom/Mesa thing is this: CCair has 130 pilots on the street. A mean seniority of around 10 years. We weren't able to come to agreements with management on payrates for 70/90 seat RJs and were forced to shut down because of this. If CCair had reached an agreement (one ALPA would never sign because it "hurt Mesa's chances at a better contract") there would be no Freedom. Now Mesa may be furloughing and Freedom is hiring all the while 130 highly qualified professional pilots are getting ready to finish their unemployment benefits. Let's not also forget that the U MEC stated that they would enter into no J4J agreement with a carrier that is not represented by ALPA.

 

[100LL... Again!]

To the Mesa guys: Before you think I'm not sympathetic to your situation, I AM!

BUT (as they say), the problem lies in the fact that since pilot supply is greater than demand, sooner or later someone is going to crack.

When there is a slight shortage of something, everyone keeps their good social graces and tries to look like a team player.

When the shortage becomes acute, it's every man for himself.

Human nature - we think we can stop it but rarely can.

I would love to make major airline pay someday. Probably never going to happen. I will be thankful if I can top out at Comair pay levels. Maybe I'm not being positive enough. I don't know.

I do know this - if I could work for Freedom pay rates flying that type of equipment WITHOUT HURTING other pilots, I would.
It's still more than I've ever made in aviation. (CA pay of course)

But I still don't think it's the Freedom pilots' fault.
Free markets are ugly, but cost controls are uglier.

We want to 'protect our profession', but get real - VERY FEW professions have this protection. We should not confuse the fact that we want something and then get the idea that we are MORALLY entitled to it.

We have created a situation where a pilot is a commodity.
Everyone upgrades in seniority order. We play the contract like a fiddle and then bitch when mgmt does the same.



THE REAL PROBLEM:

Too many pilots.

What happened to the old days, when you would instruct for a few years, then fly boxes, THEN move on to a regional?

Supply and demand. Lots of new jobs, get hired at 800 hours into a jet, upgrade within two years, etc. Freight companies and flight schools could not keep pilots. Why? Crap for pay & schedule.

CFI's telling airlines "Give me the RJ or I won't come work for you."

Then 9-11 /bad ecomony/dotcom meltdown, whatever.

Its the other side of the curve. Get used to it. None of us has the right to control the world to our own purposes. If you won't let Freedom guys jumpseat, fine. Your choice. They, and us, will live with the consequences of our decisions.


Rant Alert! Skip to next post -

The following contains sarcasm:

Maybe putting a limit on student starts would help. Let's tell all the flight schools to limit their student load so that there isn't a constant crop of new pilots looking for jobs. Maybe ALPA can get that done for us.

Maybe pilots from any school that have Ads that say "Be a first Officer, not a Flight Instructor" should be blackballed.

They do nothing but breed that attitude of 'I deserve an airline job right out of flight school with 200 dual given and 3.9 actual instrument.'

Don't be a pukey CFI driving your pathetic little Seneca around when you can be an epaulette-wearing hero LONG before you really deserve it.

I love dedicated CFI's. Ones who didn't see the job as beneath them. Ones that saw the opportunity to learn. i also have an affinity for freight dogs (who do the real dirty work of the flying biz).

Got on at a regional 700 hours? More power to you. Really. Acknowledge that you were fortunate to have such an expedited career path. Do not delude yourself that somehow you deserved it. And watch it when you criticize people who are doing something very similar to what you did.

Side note: Anyone who thinks they are ABOVE a CFI job or freight job shouldn't be pilots. If you didn't have to do it, be glad, not disdainful.

Rant Over- Back to filling out the Starbuck's Employment App.

 

[TXCAP4228]

The "industry"?

Airlines do not exist to provide jobs to pilots, airlines exist to transport people and cargo. The "industry" and what's good for it revolve around the service that is provided.

If you think that its bad for the industry that other people will do your job for less, take a good hard long look in the mirror.

Flame away.