Freedom Airlines Accepts J4J.......

[eaglefly]

Earthsquirrel either has his resume into Freedom and desieres to be a 25,000/year airline pilot topping out at 50 in 15 years - or he is managment.

His rational is the same as J.O.'s. Pilots are nothing but "aerial bus drivers" and should be paid bus driver wages. All the while J.O. and assorted other fat cat executves rake in MILLIONS at their expense.

If you don't stand up for something, you'll fall for anything.

Earthsquirrel fell a long time ago.

An advocate of managment stealing as many nuts as it can to fill its cheeks until they burst and handing a nut or two out to the pilots who actually produce.

 

[surplus1]

i agree any plane larger than 50 seats should be flown by mainline. We could be working at AWA making a hell of a lot more flying a 90 seater than at mesa. treated better too.

Why should any plane larger than 50 seats be flown by "mainline"?

Why do you assume that if you were working at AWA you would automatically be making more money for a 90-seater than at Mesa? Why would you automatically be treated better at AWA?

Why can't your union, which is the same union at AWA, negotiate the same pay and working conditions for a 90-seater at Mesa as it could at AWA?

Face it, who operates the airplane does NOT automatically result in higher wages or better working conditions. Your union wants you to believe that because it favors the mainline group over the regional group. The union would like the mainline pilots to have those jobs in preference to the regional pilots. That favoritism really has nothing to do with economics. It has to do with who is running the union, i.e., the mainline pilots. Naturally, they want to take care of themselves before they take care of you or me. "Self preservation is nature's first law." Well guess what, I want to take care of me before I take care of them. It seems we are "birds of a feather" after all.

If the union can negotiate better wages and working conditions for a 90-seat jet at one airline, then it can do the same at another airline. Actually, since the financial condition of Mesa Air Group is better than the financial condition of America West, the union (if it wants to) should be able to do better at Mesa. Unless, of course, the union's demands are unreasonable.

Since we already have "regional airlines" and "major airlines" that are arbitrarily divided from each other, that is not going to change because we "wish" that it would. Keep in mind that this "division" is the brainchild of the union. Management is simply taking advantage of it. The union and the mainline pilots are the one's that originally gave management that advantage. Unfortunately (for us), it is an advantage that management will not willingly give up.

Since "we" (the union) created this separation now we have to live with it. The division exists and there is no going back. Certainly not in the economic conditions of today. The major airlines (most of them) are incapable of sustaining their present business models. They will either change them or ultimately go out of business. That's not "pretty" and I don't like it either, but it is reality. In today's world these "major airlines" simply cannot continue to operate profitably with the cost structure that they have in place. It will change whether we like it or not.

When the change comes a 50-seat, 70-seat or 90-seat RJ will NOT be operated at a "mainline carrier" with the high wages, benefits and low productivity of the typical major airline. Therefore, if the airplane is moved to the major, you as its pilot won't be getting the pipe dream that you imagine. You'll just be giving your job and your seniority to the mainline pilot. Why? Because he wants it?

Yes there should be a division between the two, but only because we have allocated the work to different groups. How was that "allocation" determined and by whom? Answer: It was determined arbitrarily and unilaterally by mainline pilots. There is no "logic" in the dividing line that your 50-seat limit imagines.

Fifty seats is nothing more than one pilot group, now dissatisfied with its lack of growth upward, suddenly deciding that it "wants to fly the small jets" and grow downward; a condition that the very same group did NOT want only a short while ago. They didn't want ANY "regional" aircraft at the time. They previously did not want anything smaller than a DC-9 or a 737. Now they do. Does that mean that regional pilots simply have to accept whatever arbitrary line mainline pilots choose to draw? I don't think so.

It is their (the mainline pilots) idea that a line should be drawn at 50-seats. Nobody asked me (a regional pilot) where I thought the line should be drawn. Do I just have to accept whatever line a pilot from another airline happens to decide is "best for me"? I think NOT. I'm quite capable of deciding what is "best for me" without their help; a fact that often seems to escape them. What happens to me if tomorrow the same mainline pilots decide to redraw the new line at 30-seats? Do I just give away my job and my seniority becuse that's the way mainline pilots want it? Sorry but that's nonsense!

Unless WE (mainline pilots and regional pilots) decide TOGETHER and by mutual agreement where the "line" should be drawn, it will always be arbitrary and we will continue to fight with each other over who gets what piece of the pie. Result: Management wins.

We really have only two choices: 1) Join forces and become a single pilot group (one list) or 2) Reach a mutual agreement as to where the line will be drawn between us. As long as either group continues to try to impose it's view on the other group, there will be war between us. That is exactly what's happening today, i.e., mainline pilots groups are trying to impose their views on regional pilot groups, against the will and at the expense of the regional pilots. That's a win/lose scenario.

Some regional pilot groups, mostly those that are young and relatively inexperienced, are willing to accept that. Others have been and are being coerced, by their own union, into accepting it. Other regional groups want no part of it, won't be coerced and will fight for what they see as theirs, just like the mainline pilots are doing. My pilot group will never accept any arbitrary limit that is imposed upon us by any mainline group against our will. Maybe 50-seats is acceptable to you but it is NOT acceptable to us. Where does that leave us?

Ultimately, market forces and economics will determine where the line, if any, should be. The sooner that Duane Woerth and company recognizes that he cannot draw that line arbitrarily or unilaterally in Herndon, Atlanta, Virginia or Phoenix any more than I can draw it arbitrarily in Cincinnati or you can draw it in New Mexico, the better off we'll all be. Then we can sit down together, as we should be doing now, and agree on where we want the line to be drawn.

Do I have an opinon? Sure I do but my opinion is just as arbitrary as the mainline 50-seat opinion. Why? Because it is based on protecting my interests, which happen to be different from their interests. Until OUR interests become one and the same or at least shared, the dividing line between us (measured in aircraft size) will always be the cause of disputes and a lack of unity.

Do I want to take anything from them? NO, I do not. I think they should keep their DC-9s (717's), 737's and Airbus varieties at the "mainline", but the regional jets (which end in my opinion at 100-seats) stay on my side of the fence. I don't want to take from them but I will not voluntarily allow them to take from me either.

Should we take down the fence? Yes, we should! How should we do that? TOGETHER or not at all.

I wish us all a better New Year.

 

[earlthesquirrel]

Freedom takes pilot jobs from Mesa, Mesa takes jobs from America West and U.S. Airways. The regional pilots who are willing to work for peanuts now have it come right back to them. Shame on you. To hear a regional pilot complain of being undercutted by another carrier is laughable.

For those who work at Mesa be glad J.O. posts a "paper" loss every year and doesn't have to pay you a pay raise. It keeps you employed. If things are so bad then please leave and find employment elsewhere in this wide open job market.

I personally fly for a corporation that considers us as part of a team and not as an adversary. This is a relationship that has been cultivated on both sides. ALPA and its members should try it sometime.

 

[likeitis]

I personally fly for a corporation that considers us as part of a team and not as an adversary. This is a relationship that has been cultivated on both sides.

It's called you receiving a reach around while you take it from behind.


Just keep polishing your leaders one eyed yogurt slinger while humming I LOVE MY JOB AND EMPLOYER, THEY CAN NEVER DO WRONG.

 

[Smoking Man]

hhab

Could you post where you found this information about freedom and JFJ.

Thanks


Smoking Man

 

[Britpilot]

Freedom takes pilot jobs from Mesa, Mesa takes jobs from America West and U.S. Airways. The regional pilots who are willing to work for peanuts now have it come right back to them. Shame on you. To hear a regional pilot complain of being undercutted by another carrier is laughable.

For those who work at Mesa be glad J.O. posts a "paper" loss every year and doesn't have to pay you a pay raise. It keeps you employed. If things are so bad then please leave and find employment elsewhere in this wide open job market.

I personally fly for a corporation that considers us as part of a team and not as an adversary. This is a relationship that has been cultivated on both sides. ALPA and its members should try it sometime.

With 3800 hours and right seat in a baby king air you know it all. You know nothing. Stay in your little corporation and keep kissing the corporate ass and don't rant about things of which you know nothing. Moron.

 

[captjim]

With 3800 hours and right seat in a baby king air you know it all. You know nothing. Stay in your little corporation and keep kissing the corporate ass and don't rant about things of which you know nothing. Moron.

You tell that idiot Nigel!

 

[ksu_aviator]

I use to work at a union carrier so you can flame me if you want, but I am talking from experience.

My experience has been that the union does what they can to upset management in order to get what they want. The guise is that its a sign of solidarity. Hardly! The only purpose it serves is to polarize and radicalize those that are so inclined. Then, if any one else thinks differently they are chastized by the radicalized union members. Of course, another side effect is that management becomes enraged and is no longer willing to negotiate.

Think about it. Who would give someone money or time off for doing things to ruin operations or your reputation? Why would any one work with employees that are determined to defy any wish you have?

The other day, on my last trip with this company, I heard a union rep arguing his point with a senior pilot in our company. His arguments where simple sound bites that are designed incite anger and had no logical basis. Examples: "It underminds the contract" and "Its costing us jobs." The senior captain was making logical arguements using facts and common sense. Who won, well the senior captain was very quickly surrounded by the radicalized unionites and shamed into saying what they wanted him too.

This is why I am against unions now. I have seen how they work first hand and I must say they go against everything I believe in. I.e. hard work, honesty and loyalty. Remember a company hires you to solve a problem not create one. Unions create problems.

Let the flaming begin, BTW I know what you'll say. Unions are neccessary because management will screw us if we don't. Look at how FEDEX was before unions. They where given $1/hr better than the highest paid major in the country, then they got a union and lost flying to feeders. You will also say I'm management, scab, uninformed, stupid, or use some other ignorant grade school name calling. If you are going to flame me try to use a logical argument, I won't respond to anything that doesn't have some logic to it.

 

[trainerjet]

ksu..

I see no reason to flame you or call you names...however, I do see with clarity that your opinion is based on very limited experience. And at one company which currently finds itself in contract negotiations, along with the whole situation of buying another carrier to perhaps use as leverage.

So, you can talk all you want about your "experience". It is, however, EXTREMELY limited...and therefore, cannot provide you with much knowledge. Only what you saw at Mesaba...in the brief time you were there. And probably, only to the extent that it affected you.

Obviously, you've decided that "unions create problems" based on this vast "experience". And because of this, there is no "logic" that can change your mind...so why bother?

 

[ksu_aviator]

Very unique trainerjet, calling people names by implying it rather than coming out and saying it. Kind of a fill in the blank approach. But you did illustrate my point very well. Because I disagree with unions then I must be uninformed or ignorant or whatever word you prefer. Why can't it be an intelligent decision?

 

[trainerjet]

All I did was point out that your experienced point of view comes from a very limited time with one particular airline.

You filled in the blanks yourself. And quite nicely, I might add.

PS. The words "ignorant" and "uninformed" are also your own.

 

[racerX]

All the name calling aside, what Freedom is doing is hurting the profession. I'm not advocating they quit, but neither should they accept j4j. The Freedom pilots need to change things to help our industry or the pilots of every other unionized airline will change things for them. You don't get something for free. You sell us out, you don't get the jumpseat. If I am the interviewer at an airline and a Freedom pilot comes for an interview, he/she is not getting the job. I won't infect any pilot group with people who opperate like that. Perhaps they can't speak up because they are afraid that, without a contract, they would get fired. Why don't they unionize? Because then management wouldn't give them the big planes? That makes them the selfish ones we think them to be.

Why should only mainline pilots fly a/c over 50 seats? Why not let the regonals fly 737's or 757/767's. Why dosen't United buy skywest and transfer all flying to them and furlough all their pilots. That would cut costs. In fact, why don't we furlough all pilots and hire any teenager that is fliping burgurs to come and fly for min. wage. That would save money and free up a bunch of burger jobs for all of us!

 

[ksu_aviator]

I am the interviewer at an airline and a Freedom pilot comes for an interview, he/she is not getting the job.

Hey why not say if you work at Great Lakes I won't hire you either. Or if you paid for your CFI I won't hire you. Where do you draw the line? Freedom pilots are just pilots. Every one knows how this job market is.

It shouldn't suprise anyone that a carrier like Freedom popped up. Airlines have to cut costs. Majors airlines do anyway. Why do you think all the regionals are picking up so much flying? Every one flying for a regional airline is doing the same thing to the industry that Freedom is. We just chose to blame them for our problems rather than looking with in.

Back to my point though. Not hiring a Freedom pilot because he/she was in a pinch and needed a job is assanine. It also illustrates the mob mentallity that I was talking about before. "Do what we say or else." But hey if you guys want to keep illustrating why unions aren't as wonderful as you think keep posting.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Don't you understand, KSU? All unions and all union decisions good. All companies and all company decisions bad. *grunt grunt drool drool*

Not to worry, you have at least one person on your side... But then again I am blinkered, too, I guess... Since I don't blindly follow the union line and come to the simpleminded conclusion that unions (mine or anyone else's) are always right and any company that isn't unionized is full of blabbering troglodytes who enjoy the feeling of KY between their buttocks.

Unfortunately you were more correct than just about any poster yet on this thread when you referred to "radicalized" unionites... If I only had a nickel for each time I'd been subjected to rah-rah union hacks yammering on about how stupid management is (without bothering to address their own equally questionable agendas), I'd be able to pay my union dues without dipping into my paycheck.

To me (and many other "uninformed" individuals), the good that unions do is all too frequently overshadowed by the harm that they so lovingly labor to inflict upon their own "brothers." Very similar, in fact, to the harm that radical feminists do to their own cause when they trivialize issues by doing silly things like renaming a woman's menstrual cycle "femstruation", because God forbid one would use the letters "m-e-n" in such a word. The kneejerk union responses to many issues are just as infuriating to the rank-and-file as "femhole covers" are to thinking people. The automatic assumption that everything the union tries to do is beneficial to the cause of the pilots is not only wrong, it's dangerously stupid.

In any case, refusing jumpseats to other pilots whose COMPANY policies you don't agree with just makes me shake my head in wonderment. Unless they personally offend me when they walk into my cockpit, any pilot, for any company, is welcome in my jumpseat. I respect that people need to work and working at Blockbuster instead of flying for Freedom simply isn't an option. Pilots fly... Get over it and don't be so sanctimonious as to refuse a ride to someone who simply wants to feed his/her family.

 

[earlthesquirrel]

Hey KSU_AVIATIOR good post. You notice how when a person says something negative about a union the automatically get called names? Freedom airlines is an airline of the unions' making. It was a way for J.O. to get around portions of the contract that alpa has with America West and U.S. Airways. I know one person at Freedom and he loves it. It is unfortunate that he will be blackballed for the rest of his career.