Freedom Air and new hires

[mDog]

Hey guys and gals. I am a mesa new hire who never made it through ground school. I have been keeping up with the boards etc. and I have become concerned about the possibility of being called up for Freedom. Here is the cruxt of the problem I never made it completely through ground school so I have no seniority #, have no union protection and I am technically not even a member of ALPA. I am just by the grace of the company being kept on a call back list (probably not worth the paper it is written on). I also (in todays market) dont really have the hours to go many other places so I am afraid that if I refuse to fly for freedom, mesa is going to let me go. In addition, if I take a position I dont want to be screwed for the rest of my short career. Either choice is a bummer so I'm looking for some good advice or words of wisdom. If your going to flame me dont bother I am looking for serious advice. Private message me if you have to... Thanks for any help I can get.

 

[dondk]

I am going to guess that you are a MAPD grad... IF you were not than "usually" you have enough time to look elsewhere.

As a MAPD grad they usually put you where they need you, although I doubt they will put you into Freedom immediately. I would guess they would want as many experienced crews as they can get immediately. It is easier for them to do differences or transition training before going to new hire(s).

Mesa is wierd though, when I was there they were putting a mix of people into all 4 aircraft from MAPD (B1900, CRJ, ERJ, and DHC-8).

Basically, they guaranteed you an interview with Mesa, not with Freedom or any other carrier). If they offer you a class you "may" not know for which carrier unless you ask.

At that point it is your decision to say yes or no, I know that does not help you, but I would not worry until they start calling MAPD guys for Freedom.

One other point... As I remember it (and yes it has been a few years since I was at Mesa). You ARE an employee from day ONE. They just do not pay for your hotel until you pass Systems. I do not get it where you were in gound school but never received an ID or filled out the ALPA paperwork. Fill in the blanks....

 

[vere76]

I think they are going to start asking MAPD to go to Freedom, If you can log on Mesa union site, and read some of the replies. One post said there was couple guys from the majors who were furloughed. Will see What happens. Only time will tell

 

[Brother Francis]

Gordian knot

Class 1 rumor has it that Chautauqua will be hiring off the street soon. Cutting the knot is easier than untying it.

 

[eaglefly]

You have a tough decision. Every decision comes with risks and rewards. Should you choose Freedom, then you must also accept the potential future consequences of that decision.

I can't tell you what those consequences will be. Good luck. The only advice I can offer now is that you may want to consider living in your domicile.

 

[Cornelius]

I'm not sure how people feel about freedom air, but I do know the basics. If this is your first airline job, I would go to freedom air w/o hesitation if certain circumstances are met. Now, if current pilots at Mesa are refusing to move to the freedom side, then I would not go. Take a very good look at what ALPA is saying about freedom air, and make your decision based on the facts. Again, I'm not sure exactly what's going on, just my opinion.

 

[captjim]

Cornenlius, I'm disappointed in you. So you would take a job at Freedom Air

The choice is easy, don't take it. I know things such right now, the times sucked at Eastern and Continental in the 80's too. Just ask how things suck for the guys that took the job that are now hated by the rest of the industry. Please don't add your name to my scab list. Don't ruin you career becouse you wanted a job now. Hang in there like so many did before you, don't eat the forbidden fruit!

 

[Dieterly]

Jim, I guess you are a PFT scum from COEX? Or at least you are flying side by side with losers that had buy their job? I just assume you add those names to your "scablist" also...

 

[Cornelius]

Captjim, I personally would never go to Freedom Air I was just saying that the dude looking at going there needs to take a careful look. I've been doing a little research on freedom since my original post, and I didn't know things were that messed up. My original post was written as if I were in that guy's shoes. I feel pretty strongly about unions since my airline is currently going through negotiations this week and we have the lowest pay and benefits in the US. We have a union meeting today which I'm going to attend while many other pilots at other regionals don't take the effort to travel when they have their meetings during negotiations. I have never applied to Mesa nor Freedom Air but I have been applying to many other regionals.

Finally, don't go around throwing the word "Scab" around if you don't know who I am.

 

[Pileit]

A difficult decision to be sure. But, I'd be asking myself whether I wanted my name added to this list http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9032 which has been circulating around the net for a few days.

Jim, I guess you are a PFT scum from COEX? Or at least you are flying side by side with losers that had buy their job? I just assume you add those names to your "scablist" also...

Dieterly, I'm always amazed at the pilots who are smart enough to fly an airplane, but can't grasp the difference between a scab and someone who paid for training. Let me ask you, are the SWA pilots who paid for their type rating on your scab list? I'm speachless...

 

[captjim]

Jim, I guess you are a PFT scum from COEX? Or at least you are flying side by side with losers that had buy their job? I just assume you add those names to your "scablist" also...

Dieterly, I've read your post in the past and I have to say you're as smart as a smoking turd.

I didn't pay for training, and I do have a few friends that did. I however do not agree with PFT, it is a choice they made at the time. Hopefuly pilots won't have to do that again.

No,Dieterly these pilots that were PFT are not on any kind of scab list. If you don't know the difference between a scab and someone who was PFT, my first statment applies.

 

[mDog]

freedom

Well you pegged me pretty close. They cancelled ground school early so we didnt get seniority numbers thats all I said about that (just a little bitter). Basically I didn't get a seniority number out of the deal. PS dont you have to be part of the union to be a scab. Even if I did work for freedom which is still my dilemma I would never have been a part of the union ( at least a full fledged member). Thanks to all of you others for at least attempting to give advice and not sling the S word! mDog

 

[TWA69]

Re: freedom

[PS dont you have to be part of the union to be a scab. Even if I did work for freedom which is still my dilemma I would never have been a part of the union ( at least a full fledged member). Thanks to all of you others for at least attempting to give advice and not sling the S word! mDog [/B][/QUOTE]

I think that Freedom Air is a non-union carrier, which is part of the problem. If you are not interested in joining unions you might be in the wrong business. I don't think it would be a very good idea to work at freedom air but that is just my opinion. That is the beauty of aviation you get to make all kinds of great decisions that affect your whole career.

 

[Dieterly]

My point exactly, Freedom Air/PFT'r are not scabs. A Scab is someone who crosses a PICKET LINE.

Frickin ALPA havn't even asked IFALPA to put a recruitment ban in place for Freedom Air, but as usually a number of guys throwing around the "Scab" word, not knowing what it really means.

On the oher hand, I agree with goin to Freedom is not most honourable (sp) thing to do, but at the same time, not much different from PFTing at COEX.

 

[eaglefly]

The fact is that these are Mesa pilots who FREELY chose to act in their own best interest by accepting flying designed to undermine the pay and working conditions of the pilot group they were formerly with.

They are willing assistants to an individual who's interest is to build his net-worth on the backs of underpaid employees to the detriment of honest hardworking and deserving americans.

This is denounced by ALPA, the Mesa MEC and all honorable Mesa pilots.

Sadly, there will always be individuals who sell-out the group (and the profession) for the benefit of themselves.

 

[azpilot]

The fact is that these are Mesa pilots who FREELY chose to act in their own best interest by accepting flying designed to undermine the pay and working conditions of the pilot group they were formerly with.

They are willing assistants to an individual who's interest is to build his net-worth on the backs of underpaid employees to the detriment of honest hardworking and deserving americans.

This is denounced by ALPA, the Mesa MEC and all honorable Mesa pilots.

Sadly, there will always be individuals who sell-out the group (and the profession) for the benefit of themselves.

Very well said. JO is a scumbag. If this was a new company with new investors and had no involvement with Mesa it would be a different story. He says it is a seperate company but they are using the Mesa training facilities, piggy backing on the Mesa certificate to start, etc. Total BS.

The industry may be changing towards lower average wages but the current situation is a complete joke. Minimum salary for first year should be around 20k and then quickly go up to around 30k. I don't care what you fly or for whom. The public has the great misconception that all pilots and flight crews are well paid and have cushy schedules. An airline like Freedom is only going to make this worse. If pilots as a whole would not fly for outfits like this they couldn't exist. If they support other airlines be it HP, CAL, whatever the airlines would be forced to pay more for the regionals which feed them. Beating a dead horse I will shut up.

AZPilot

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

to mdog

Mdog, I am a Mesa CRJ CA and I want to urge you to say no to Freedumb Airlines. I know it is easy for me to say this because I have a job, and you want to get your foot in the door of this industry, but it is the right decision. IMHO you would be taking a shortcut that would help you build time and collect a paycheck in the short term, but might hurt you in the long term. I do understand and sympathize with your current predicament, however.

I believe I am correct in saying that IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU ARE A UNION MEMBER OR NOT - IF YOU CROSS A PICKET LINE AND/OR WORK STRUCK WORK - YOU WILL BE A SCAB. People on this bulletin board like to throw around the word SCAB about anyone and everyone (especially Mesa guys) so you might be confused about what a SCAB really is.

For example: if the America West pilots and/or the Mesa pilots go on strike the unions will declare those routes (as America West and Mesa) as struck work. If replacement pilots were to go to work at AWA or Mesa and fly that stuck work then they would be SCABS. Also, if the Freedom pilots fly those routes as America West or America West Express then they would be SCABS - in other words they are working struck work.

The question you need to ask yourself is this: What am I going to do if I am asked to work struck work? Remember you will not have the protection of a union - it will just be you and JonnyO and he is saying you can either become a SCAB or you will be fired. Do you really want to put yourself in that situation? I am not saying it will happen, but if you educate yourself about the situation you will see that it very well could happen.

I wish you well in your career whatever your decision may be.
Spiff

 

[mDog]

Thanks for the words of wisdom vs the rhetoric. Question: What is the difference between a scab and say someone working for a company that has taken over CC Airs old routes?

 

[Sun Devil 2000]

What about an outsider that is hired by Mesa Air Group in the future and assigned to Freedom? Would they be considered a scab as long as they did not fly struck work?

By outisder I mean someone who has no previous connection to Mesa or Mesa Pilot Development.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

Freedumb

CCAirs routes are not presently "Struck Work". The pilots of CCAir are not on strike. I think they are all (or nearly all) furloughed and that CCAir will be done away with - sadly. That is the difference. If the pilots at CCAir do go on strike (can you strike when you are furloughed?) they would probably declare their USAirways Express routes as struck work and would request that all pilots honor their strike. Any pilot, whether working as a replacement CCAir pilot, or for any other company which agrees with USAirways to replace CCAir on those routes, is working struck work. Now if CCAir goes out of business then I am not sure how it works from there.

EX: When the pilots at Comair went on strike they declared Comair's routes as struck work. If Mesa had signed an agreement with Delta to replace Comair on those routes, and IF Mesa's pilots agreed to work those flights (the vast majority never would have agreed to this and our union warned our company that we would not work those routes) then that would be an example of working struck work. Mesa did make plans to move into CVG during the strike, but did not have an agreement with Delta - therefore it would not have been a struck work situation. Comair has a huge presence in CVG, but does not LITERALLY own it - yet.

I hope that makes it clear as mud for you.
Spiff