Free First Officers!

[bobbysamd]

Anti-P-F-T victims

Good post from AV8OR, above. I like his ethics test comment.

My story is similar. In brief, I was meeting all the quals when I had regional interviews twelve years ago, shortly before AV8OR's experience. I was not hired. Shortly thereafter, a great many regionals instituted P-F-T programs. Ethics and fraud potential notwithstanding, I was not about to "pay" for something for which I was already deemed sufficiently qualified to rate interviews. Talk about having your nose rubbed in sh-t.

Once more, to thine ownself be true.

 

[B190Captain]

Re: Passenger's Perspective #2

I thought of something else last night. Imagine if I was a passenger on a Gulfstream Beech 1900? Say the F/O has 300 hours, and the captain has maybe 1700 hours. Well, guess what, a ticketed passenger (me) has more flight experience than the flight crew combined. Now I consider that a sad state of affairs. I have 2,900 hours and am still active as a general aviation pilot.

Well guess what chief, I have more than twice your experience and I only fill the left seat. Not all of our F/O's are low timers. In fact some of our F/O's have more time than you.

I would be uncomfortable flying on a turbine powered aircraft knowing that the crew was buying their experience and on top of it had less experience than a PASSENGER! That's why I prefer to travel on Southwest especially and any of the major airlines any day when I am buying a ticket. I like to go on a flight knowing that my crew has sufficient experience to handle anything that comes their way, especially if there is an emergency situation. I sure as hell do not want to be paying for a ticket on flight flown by someone buying experience!!!!! I believe that I'm paying the way for the crew and as a passenger I expect them to be earning a PAYCHECK as a result of my paying for a ticket.

That was so moronic it does not deserve an answer.

Now, to clarify, I personally do not mind flying with a 300-hour pilot who is giving me a rental checkout and is getting paid for doing so. That instructor is gaining valuable experience and I would be glad to see that instructor eventually (after gaining some good experience as an instructor) when I am a passenger on a flight. I think flight instruction, dropping sky divers, etc. are great ways for low time pilots to gain experience. Low time pilots, PLEASE make sure you are earning a paycheck--that student or skydiver is paying you so you can get PAID!!!

Instructor experience?

VFR most of the time.

Hardly flies aircraft, student does.

All on right seat.

Not to knock all CFI's but I have flown with some real pieces of work that must have PAID OFF the FAA to get CFI or MEI Certificates.

Dropping sky divers! Now thats valuable time! ALWAYS VFR and drops people off in mid air and when that is complete, a steep turn followed by a dive to get out of our way.

Your statements make no sense whatsoever. I don't want to fly GIA because I have more experience than the crew but if the crew flew as a CFI or dropped skydivers I would?

sigh...

Sorry, I could not resist.

 

[Freight Dog]

B190 captain... I think most people have a problem with ethics and morals of your FO's. Paying for *required* crewmember time, IMHO is unethical and that is effectively stealing a job from qualified pilots.

It's more an issue of ethics than qualifications.

My .02 cents

 

[B190Captain]

B190 captain... I think most people have a problem with ethics and morals of your FO's. Paying for *required* crewmember time, IMHO is unethical and that is effectively stealing a job from qualified pilots.

It's more an issue of ethics than qualifications.

My .02 cents

Let me say this again and for the last time.

WE HAVE PERMANENT SENIORITY, FULLY EMPLOYED FIRST OFFICERS THAT ARE PROTECTED BY OUR TEAMSTERS CONTRACT! THEY HAVE TIME RANGING FROM 1200 TO OVER 3000 HOURS OF PART 121 FLYING EXPERIENCE AND THEY ARE NOT PAID 8.00 AN HOUR. PLENTY MORE THAN THAT I ASSURE YOU. IT IS JUST THAT CERTAIN SLOTS ARE LEFT OPEN FOR THESE INTERNS OF SORTS. I CANNOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT THAT.

THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO AVERT THE PROGRAM BECAUSE WE DO NOT OWN THE AIRLINE. THE ONES THAT YOU REFER TO AS THE LOW TIMERS GO THROUGH A TRAINING PROGRAM FULLY APPROVED BY THE FAA.

GIA HAS AN IMPECCABLE SAFETY RECORD WITH 0 FATALITIES!!!
DID YOU HEAR THAT ONE KILOMIKE?!?

OH AND BTW NAME A MAJOR AIRLINE OR REGIONAL OR CARGO AIRLINE AND I WILL LET YOU KNOW HOW MANY FORMER GIA PILOTS ARE IN THERE.

NUFF SAID!

 

[Freight Dog]

B190 cap.. I have some questions:

By your post, I gather that you have your permanent FO's and then you have "interns" which are the guys paying for training.

Secondly, another question I have for you:
If I am a qualified guy, and apply to Gulfstream, do I have a choice of getting hired there without having to fork out 20k?

Looking forward to the clarification..

 

[B190Captain]

B190 cap.. I have some questions:

By your post, I gather that you have your permanent FO's and then you have "interns" which are the guys paying for training.

Secondly, another question I have for you:
If I am a qualified guy, and apply to Gulfstream, do I have a choice of getting hired there without having to fork out 20k?

Looking forward to the clarification..

Part 1 is YES but paying for experience. PFT is so misunderstood. But I will not get into that.

Part 2 is NO unfortunately.

Please don't shoot the messenger.

 

[jumppilot]

It all boils down to a famous saying, "you gotta do what you gotta do."

Now before someone calls me an idiot because of my time, and saying "you don't know how the indsutry works!", I do know what it is like to be unemployed.

If I could get a job making 15,000/yr, but have to pay 10,000 for traing, would I? Absolutely not. I'm young enough that I don't want to put up with this BS, and sell myself out like a whore to get a job. The journey is half the fun and I intend to keep it that way. However, making a loan payment of $100 a month would be an appealing proposition for many people.

One person made the comment that someone he knows went to ASA and paid for training, but he wouldn't do it because it was wrong. Well, for the person that went to ASA (and the others like him) they now have 10 years of seniority and are probably drawing a pretty nice check. Are they bad pilots? I'm willing to bet not.

Hey, we all retire at 60. You gotta do what you gotta do. I'm not going to let this bother me. I plan on going to work, drawing a paycheck, and having fun on the weekends. I'm not going to have a heart attack over work politics. Yes indeed people, just because we fly airplanes and it is the greatest job in the world, does not change the fact it is still just a job. Don't have a stroke over it.


Flame away, if you must.

 

[metrodriver]

The 737 type required by SWA (even to get the interview)is also a form for pft, but I've heard no one about it yet. A SWA guy will say it was an investment in his future. Sorry for the guy who doesn't have the money. So a guy who gets a job offer and has to pay for his type training is suddenly different?
I don't like either one of these schemes.
Slightly different is what Ameriflight and some others do. At AMF people go through excact the same training as the captains, and are building valuable experience. Most of the fo's there are doing this as part of their flight training curriculum, kind of like ERAU with the King Air or TAB express (also King Air). They are not taking up a space that would otherwise be occupied by a paid pilot. I don't have a problem with that. I started my flying in the very early 90's and taught for 4 years. At that time ACA, ASA, Mesa, Comair, TWE all had PFT deals. The FSI deal was that you paid $450.- for an evaluation, and if you were good enough they put you in a pool, for some of those previously mentioned commuters plus some other ones to give you an interview. If succesful, you had to pay about $10.000- for your training.
All this was preceded by application fees, look at the current situation and see where it's going.
For all those folks that learned to fly in the past 6 years and got on with a regional with less than 1500 consider yourself extremely lucky. When those PFTdeals in the early-mid nineties were going on minimum requirements at some commuters were 2500+hours, 500hr ME. And that' s before you paid for your training. So take another look in the mirror and tell yourself how good you've had it......

 

[bigD]

Holy crap...I just read this entire thread, and it's funny how it follows the "PFT Thread" script almost exactly.

Someone mentions PFT. Then some dude with "B1900 F/O" in their current position field defends it. That person gets flamed. Then another person asks how PFT is different than renting a 172 for 250 hours. Many people respond. The B1900 F/O defends himself some more, and points out the number of PFT grads at the airlines. Someone else mentions an interviewer that hates PFT, and if HE were an interviewer himself. he'd see to it that no PFT grads would be hired. Someone else talks about doing whatever it takes to get to the dream. The B1900 F/O gets flamed some more. Another guy states that PFT is no different than SWA requiring a 737 type. Again, many people respond.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Maybe add a line or two in there about instructing not being quality time because it's VFR and the instructor isn't flying the plane.

It's uncanny. All PFT threads have these basic ideas mentioned at one point or another. I'm sure I missed some too. What we need to do is play a little game - every time a regular poster here responds to some flamebait by a PFT guy - he owes a dollar to the admins of this web site. I think that'd generate a good amount of revenue for the good people that run this board!

 

[Skaz]

A squared two points to zero, you sure are teaching me a thing or two

You do not seem to understand what I'm saying, so that must be my fault for not making it simple enough

3 companies; X, Y and Z

Company X offers training on say B737-400, which you pay for (duh), but first you must get typed by eg flightsafety......which you do and pay company X USD 30 000, for the training, they send you to another company which they have an agreement with for this line-training.

Company Y, functions in this manner: They employ full-time Captains, and F/O's from company X are utilized for 100 to 250 hours, then that particular F/O has completed his 'line-training' contract and departs, to be replaced by the next F/O ...
Thus full-time Captains, and 'contract' F/O's for 100 to 250 hours

Thus our particular pilot now has a type rating on B734 and applies to Company Z, which requires oh, say 2500TT, ATP,ME, typed on 737 and min 100hours multi crew, multi jet.........his application is successfull and he continues to one day be a DE and sits on the selection board of this airline.

So, my friend, what is wrong with this scenario........? methinks nothing.

so nobody is taking any jobs from anybody else. Please reread carefully if you are confused.
This abovementioned scenario is different from anyone offering to fly for free, or a company suddenly taking direct entry F/O's who pay for their new positions, at the detriment of those already in the company.

these last two examples I do not agree with however