freaked on Gulfstream Academy

[wrxpilot]

mcjohn,

One other way to look at it. And keep in mind that I'm generally against PFT, but I'll present this argument anyway in the interest of showing both sides. Let's say you wanted to be an electrician or something similar that requires a working knowledge of electricty and wiring and such. Wouldn't you go to college and get a degree in something like electrical engineering? Who would be paying for that college? The future company you hope to work for? NO! You and your family would foot the bill. So there you would be, starting work with an electrical company with a large amount of school debt and the company would probably still have to train you in certain specifics of the job. So what's the difference between that scenario and GAA?

Do what you have to and feel is right for you.

Uh, realityman... An electrical engineer and an electrician are vastly different fields. It's like saying a bus driver is an airline pilot. A terrible analogy, because I know some very talented electricians.

When I went to college for engineering, my college was NOT billing me out to clients as an undergrad. If they were, I (and everybody else) would've told them to f*** themselves.

Once you have your undergrad degree as an engineer (sorta like having an MEI/CFII for a pilot) and are working for a company, a lot of the time the company will pay for more advances degrees (MBA, MS, etc.).

 

[realityman]

wrxpilot,


My apologies. I was attempting to make an analogy in a field I didn't really know anything about. Guess it didn't work out as expected. Oh well. I'll just have to stick to aviation analogies and quantum physics.

FarginD,

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. An ATP is a very generalized form of education in aviation. It means you can pretty much fly to very tight standards. So it's part of your aviation education. Everyone pretty much covers that themselves. A type rating is very specific and varies from one employer to the next as to what type of type rating they need for you to fly for them. SWA flys 737's. THEY should train you on their equipment. Yes, I realize you get training when you are hired, but you have to come in with the type. You may not be paying them directly, but you're sure saving them some money, and you're dishing out that money to get the job. Isn't that PFT? I've never heard of anyone being required to get a 717 type on their own dime to fly at Airtran. Nobody has to buy an Airbus type to fly at JB. Gosh, which type would you decide on for any of the other majors or frieght haulers, etc....They ALL hire you and THEN train you themselves on their equipment. Just because SWA is a good job doesn't mean it's not PFT.

Oh, and I hate to break the news to you, but I don't have any "PFT sins". I've always been trained by the companies that hired me. I do, however, remember what it was like to be a young pilot with very little experience trying to get a job in an industry that says, "We won't hire you unless you have experience" but you can't get experience unless you get hired somewhere. Flying is EXPENSIVE, so spend it however you best feel it will get you ahead in this industry.

 

[enigma]

A type rating is very specific and varies fromoneemployer to the next as to what type of type rating they need foryou tofly for them. SWA flys 737's. THEY should train you on theirequipment.

They DO train you on their equipment. SWA provides the same, ifnotbetter, newhire aircraft training than does any other 737 operator.

Yes, I realize you get training when you are hired, but youhaveto come in with the type. You may not be paying them directly,butyou're sure saving them some money, and you're dishing out thatmoneyto get the job.

What about my friend who started out at AccessAirlines without a737type rating? He upgraded at Access and received his type intheprocess, who did he pay? Certainly not SWA. Matter of fact, he PAIDnoone. Your reasoning and logic are incorrect. You assume that theonlyway to become qualified for SWA is to pay for training. SWA doesNOTrequire that any applicant pay for training. Get over it, andquittrying to drag down SWA in your attempt to justify buying a job.

Isn't that PFT? I've never heard of anyone being required to get a 717 type on their own dime to fly at Airtran.

You must have forgotten that Valuejet was a buy a job outfit. Their newhires paid for the job and didn't even get a type.

Nobody has to buy an Airbus type to fly at JB. Gosh, whichtypewould you decide on for any of the other majors or frieghthaulers,etc....They ALL hire you and THEN train you themselves ontheirequipment. Just because SWA is a good job doesn't mean it's notPFT.

Neither SWA, nor their agent, takes money from a newhire in exchange for employement. SWA is NOT PFT.

enigma

 

[Publishers]

You have to break this down into two categories. If you are hired like the Access example and you work there and you get typed, no that is not a PFT situation/.

At SWA, you have to be typed to be employed. Simple but not a pft job. Valujet was used as an example, was not pft. Was paid for interview process.

GIA is a PFT. While all the people here have indicated reasons why you might want to come up some harder way like flight instruction, someone else said it was dishonest. I beg to differ with that.

People apprentice, people get advanced degrees, people do all kinds of things to move themselves over other applicants for all type of jobs and professions and no one thinks anything about it.

 

[Brett Hull]

They DO train you on their equipment. SWA provides the same, ifnotbetter, newhire aircraft training than does any other 737 operator.

And don't forget the most important part; They pay you while they're training you, not the other way around.

 

[realityman]

I hate to have to update you Enigma, but Valujet no longer exists. It's in the past. Netjets also had PFT, but no more.

I guess it's all just opinion then. If SWA interviews me and tells me I'm hired, and I don't have a 737 type, I get a certain amount of time to get the type, right? Now at the end of that time, if I return to SWA and tell them I didn't get the type, will they type me themselves and let me have the job anyway? I don't think so. I HAVE to buy a 737 type to fly for them! To me, that's PFT. Who cares who my money went to? All that matters to me is that X number of dollars came out of my pocket so I could fly for SWA. Hey, if you're lucky enough to come from another carrier that already got you a 737 type, then it's all good. But I still think that paying for a type rating on equipment the employer operates in order to get hired is PFT.

I guess I also don't understand why if SWA does such intensive newhire training they can't just do the type themselves. Any comments from SWA guys out there?

 

[bobbysamd]

Military v. civilian "controversy"

If PFT programs are so hated in the industry then is there any animosity toward military pilots (who were not instructors) getting a job ahead of an experienced CFI.

You also need to include military pilots getting jobs ahead of experienced regional pilots, freight pilots and corporate pilots.

I, for one, cannot say there is animosity. It is reality. Military pilots, by virtue of their training, experience and personal qualities always go to the head of the line for airline hiring.

The airlines know, almost for sure, what they're getting in a military pilot. For one thing, most military pilots are officers. One has to make it through a screening process (1) to be accepted for officer training/ROTC/a service academy and (2) make it through that training. In effect, earning a commission is a de facto screening process for the airlines. (I'm not familiar with WO training, but these people, too, are high-quality and go through stringent training.) They have a good idea of the person's physical condition and fitness. They have an extremely good idea what traits the military pilot as a person will bring to the table in terms of following direction and discipline, among other things. They are less sure of these things in a civilian pilot.

Then, the airlines know for sure the training military pilots receive. Military pilot training is a known quantity. Civilian pilot training can be high quality, but variable. Finally, the airlines know the equipment military pilots fly. Sure, many military pilots fly fighters, but quite a few fly heavy equipment in a crew situation. The airlines know that training. They may know less about a civilian pilot's equipment and crew experience.

These are some reasons why military pilots go to the head of the hiring line. They are known quantities. Of course, none of this is to be construed as civilian pilots being of lesser quality. Some are; some are not.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

FarginD,

I've never heard of anyone being required to get a 717 type on their own dime to fly at Airtran. .

Well, I could point out that I've never heard of anyone getting a "717" type at all, since there is no such thing. It is a "DC-9". But instead, I will just say that you are right. I will just agree that we disagree, and thank you for a non-confrontational, civil discourse, which is more than I can say for a lot of the "discussion" that goes on here.

Of course, I have participated in my share of these "discussions", even instigated many. But this was not one of them, so I thank you for your civil debate.

 

[bobbysamd]

SW 737 type as P-F-T

After all, Southwest airlines makes you get a 737 type rating before they hire you. Isn't that PFT? Yes, some folks have the type from previous jobs, but many actually go and pay for the type rating to get hired by SWA.

It is not P-F-T. P-F-T is when you pay the company for training it is required to provide to you by regulation. P-F-T is strictly an employment issue, only.

No matter whether you bought a 737 type or brought one with you from another job, after Southwest hires you, pursuant to 14 CFR 121, it has to put you and all of its new-hire pilots through initial training. Southwest does not charge for initial training; therefore, it is not P-F-T.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gia

GIA is a PFT. While all the people here have indicated reasons why you might want to come up some harder way like flight instruction, someone else said it was dishonest. I beg to differ with that.

As a management type, Pub, your comment comes as no surprise.

In the strict sense, GIA may not be dishonest, but it is an end-run around the traditional aviation hiring process. Most pilots build time the "harder way." They worked "hard" to get where they are and resent interlopers who try to cut in line.

H.R. could care less how pilots build time, as long as they can fit enough square pegs into square holes to fill interview slots. The pilot interview boards, comprised of pilots who likely put in the toil and sweat to climb the hiring ladder, are the ones who will care, and who might react by way of blackballs to P-F-T interlopers. If that happens, all that wonderful $29,284 worth of Gulfstream P-F-T 121 "experience" won't be worth a quarter.

 

[Publishers]

1. PFT supposedly results in the taking of a paid pilot position by someone paying for it. Southwest and the rest are not that so Realityman does not have that right at all.

2. As I said Bobby, in any other occupation that you want to take, people compete to advance ahead of others. To say about any one of them that they did not pay their dues to your satisfaction is ludicrous.

frankly if I need a multi engine rating to get a job and I go buy one and the other guy doesn't, what is the difference.

the taking the paid job of another is the argument, not jumping over others by taking short cuts.

 

[xjcaptain]

It is not P-F-T. P-F-T is when you pay the company for training it is required to provide to you by regulation. P-F-T is strictly an employment issue, only.

No matter whether you bought a 737 type or brought one with you from another job, after Southwest hires you, pursuant to 14 CFR 121, it has to put you and all of its new-hire pilots through initial training. Southwest does not charge for initial training; therefore, it is not P-F-T.

So just to be clear, if a regional required you to come in with a CRJ/ERJ/whatever type, but then sent you through initial it wouldn't be PFT? B.S. Why do you think some of these LCC can be low cost. Don't you think it saves them $$$ to have a pilot come in with a type? If they can get away with it that's their decision. But let's not try to rationalize that its O.K. because it's larger equipment, and it may be looking better and better to high time regional pilots that may have went elsewhere when times are better. I guess if you pay the pimp and not the prostitute directly you can say you're not paying for it. Kinda crude, but something to think about.

 

[enigma]

So just to be clear, if a regional required you tocomein with a CRJ/ERJ/whatever type, but then sent you through initialitwouldn't be PFT? B.S.

OK, I see the problem here. Some of you have fallen prey to the playonwords that is PFT. PFT is not about Training. IT NEVER HAD ANYTHINGTODO WITH TRAINING, because the trainingis mandated bythe FAA. It was, and is, buying a job. Pilots likeBobbysamd and myselfhave been fighting this misperception for years. Wefight because weremember the time when every new hire at some carriersmust bring acheck (for upwards of $10K) to class. He was required tobring thischeck no matter what his previous experience. It had nothingto do withtype ratings, etc. At one time, a pilot with a E120 type (saythat hewas a WestAir Captain before Risley shut em down) had to payComair$18K for his right seat, newhire training if he wanted a job.People, Isay again, this has nothing to do with training. Purely andsimply, acompletely qualified pilot was required to buy the job. That'swrong,and I'll continue to speak against it.

enigma

 

[WMUSIGPI]

mcjohn,


Let's say you wanted to be an electrician or something similar that requires a working knowledge of electricty and wiring and such. Wouldn't you go to college and get a degree in something like electrical engineering? Who would be paying for that college? The future company you hope to work for? NO! You and your family would foot the bill. So there you would be, starting work with an electrical company with a large amount of school debt and the company would probably still have to train you in certain specifics of the job. So what's the difference between that scenario and GAA?

The difference is the electrical engineer is going to be paid a nice livable wage right out of school. 15-18 K is NOT a livable wage especially for a college grad.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I hate to have to update you Enigma, but Valujet no longer exists. It's in the past. Netjets also had PFT, but no more.

I guess it's all just opinion then. If SWA interviews me and tells me I'm hired, and I don't have a 737 type, I get a certain amount of time to get the type, right? Now at the end of that time, if I return to SWA and tell them I didn't get the type, will they type me themselves and let me have the job anyway? I don't think so. I HAVE to buy a 737 type to fly for them! To me, that's PFT. Who cares who my money went to? All that matters to me is that X number of dollars came out of my pocket so I could fly for SWA. Hey, if you're lucky enough to come from another carrier that already got you a 737 type, then it's all good. But I still think that paying for a type rating on equipment the employer operates in order to get hired is PFT.

I guess I also don't understand why if SWA does such intensive newhire training they can't just do the type themselves. Any comments from SWA guys out there?

The same could be said about medicals too. I only kept a 3rd class while flight instructing. But when I started looking to move on I got a 1st class because otherwise I couldn't be a FO anywhere. Should the hiring company have given me the job without it. True I wouldn't have needed it til I was ready to fly the line. What about the Commercial cert. shouldn't they have paid me like all the international airlines were doing for their students during training at the same place I was training. There is such thing as minimum qualifications to apply. Believe me if you don't meet minimum qualifications you probably aren't going to get the call in any career.
With that said I do agree that Gulfstream, Eagle Jet ect are garbage. For that matter I don't agree with Pinnacle not providing housing or pay during training. But to say that I don't like the minimum requirements to apply for the job.... Have you noticed all the corporate jobs that require time in type and a type rating to apply. I don't see all the SWA haters foaming about these jobs.

 

[enigma]

I hate to have to update you Enigma, but Valujet nolonger exists. It's in the past. Netjets also had PFT, but no more.

Man this almost slipped past me. ValueJet does exist. They boughtAirTran and took over the name. Happily, the vast majority of theirpilots were hired after the buy a job deal was ended, but the originalValueJet corps did in fact buy their jobs.

enigma

 

[mayday1]

Man this almost slipped past me. ValueJet does exist. They boughtAirTran and took over the name. Happily, the vast majority of theirpilots were hired after the buy a job deal was ended, but the originalValueJet corps did in fact buy their jobs.

enigma

out of curiosity, what was the deal with ValueJet.. i.e. what was the PFT arrangement?

 

[bobbysamd]

SW as P-F-T

I guess it's all just opinion then. If SWA interviews me and tells me I'm hired, and I don't have a 737 type, I get a certain amount of time to get the type, right? Now at the end of that time, if I return to SWA and tell them I didn't get the type, will they type me themselves and let me have the job anyway? I don't think so. I HAVE to buy a 737 type to fly for them! To me, that's PFT.

A rose, by any other name . . . .

But, once more, P-F-T is strictly an employment issue. Why is that so difficult to understand??

In the Southwest case, many pilots already have the type, obtained on someone's nickel. Yes, you do need a 737 type to work there - just as you would need a Lear type if some corporation that flies Lears required one. Once more, pursuant to 14 CFR 121, must give you initial training. Does Southwest have a condition of employment requiring pilots to pay for that training?? No. If it did, then, absolutely, it would be P-F-T. But it does not. Therein lies the difference.

 

[bobbysamd]

You got to pay your dues if you want to sing the blues . . .

. . . . and, you know, it don't come easy.

Apologies to Ringo, but, still, an apt theme for this post:

1. PFT supposedly results in the taking of a paid pilot position by someone paying for it . . . .

2. As I said Bobby, in any other occupation that you want to take, people compete to advance ahead of others. To say about any one of them that they did not pay their dues to your satisfaction is ludicrous.

What is ludicrous is anyone with a checkbook can buy a job by way of P-F-T.

Some of these P-F-T outfits advertise that they are selective. That is BS. Reread what I just wrote. To get a job for free that would be comparable to P-F-T, one needs qualifications and wherewithal. To acquire both one instructs, flies night freight (in often dilpidated equipment), or whatever. In other words, they work hard. They build qualifications and experience. That's what "paying dues" is all about. Paying, e.g., Gulfstream for 250 hours of 121 "time" is not "paying dues." That is just "paying."

Finally, writing proactively, there will be those who peg MAPD as P-F-T. I worked there. It is not. MAPD is a 141 flight school, oriented toward Mesa Airlines, for sure, but that's all. Yes, Mesa can interview you after you graduate and it can hire you, but the only thing MAPD promises you is it will train you for your initial ratings and send you to San Juan College for your A.S. That's all.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T, back to the future

OK, I see the problem here. Some of you have fallen prey to the play on words that is PFT. PFT is not about Training. IT NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH TRAINING, because the trainingis mandated by the FAA. It was, and is, buying a job. Pilots like Bobbysamd and myself have been fighting this misperception for years. We fight because we remember the time when every new hire at some carriers must bring a check (for upwards of $10K) to class. He was required to bring this check no matter what his previous experience. It had nothing to do with type ratings, etc. At one time, a pilot with a E120 type (say that he was a WestAir Captain before Risley shut em down) had to pay Comair $18K for his right seat, new hire training if he wanted a job. People, I say again, this has nothing to do with training. Purely and simply, acompletely qualified pilot was required to buy the job. That's wrong, and I'll continue to speak against it.

(emphasis added)

Enigma has just described exactly what went on in the early 1990s (though there were still some regionals where one could be hired for free). I just would submit that ability to pay was a greater influence on being "hired" than qualifications and credentials. Absolutely, unquestionably, without a doubt, it was buying a job. It could be nothing else but. I refused.

(For those who claim I gave up, I did not soley because of P-F-T. I applied for several years to a number of non-P-F-T regionals. Go search my posts if you need to know more.)

Once again, aviation tradition, personal ethics and fraud aspects of P-F-T aside, wouldn't you feel embarassed and humiliated because you bought a job that others got for free?? Once more, it may be piloting and it may be the airlines, but it is still only a job.

Once more, think about it.

 

[bobbysamd]

So just to be clear, if a regional required you to come in with a CRJ/ERJ/whatever type, but then sent you through initial it wouldn't be PFT?

As long as said regional is not requiring you to pay for your initial it is not P-F-T. Same as Southwest, with a different name for the company.

Don't you think it saves them $$$ to have a pilot come in with a type?

Typing someone at an airline usually means a Captain upgrade. All new captains have to go through the same upgrade training, typed or not. So, it makes no difference.

I heard at one time that because Southwest applicants all have a 737 type that there was no sim ride during the interview. But, there are other airlines that don't require a sim ride, type rating or not. So, any cost savings there would be nominal.

 

[UnAnswerd]

Technical definitions

A pilot, currently not employed in the industry, goes out to a school and spends 7K getting a 737 type-rating. This pilot was not asked to get a rating by a potential employer, nor was this pilot even trying to gain employability. In short, the pilot has some extra cash and wanted to do this "just for the hell of it". Has this pilot PFT'd??? Will he be looked down upon if ever hired into the industry???

 

[bobbysamd]

Type ratings as an employability aid

A pilot, currently not employed in the industry, goes out to a school and spends 7K getting a 737 type-rating. This pilot was not asked to get a rating by a potential employer, nor was this pilot even trying to gain employability. In short, the pilot has some extra cash and wanted to do this "just for the hell of it". Has this pilot PFT'd??? Will he be looked down upon if ever hired into the industry???

He might have a tough time convincing people that he bought the type only for the hell of it, but it will not be P-F-T.

Except for Southwest, a type rating purchase really does not help employability unless one already has time in type. I went for a Citation type because I thought it might demonstrate that I could be typed and had learned about turbine equipment. Perhaps it helped me get a couple of senior flight instructing jobs but it didn't help me otherwise. In any event, the $3K expended was tax-deductable and I had a great week in Carlsbad, California!

 

[mattpilot]

what citation type costs only 3k? How much sim time & how much actual (as in real plane) did you get?

 

[bobbysamd]

Professional (Pacific) Airline Systems

what citation type costs only 3k? How much sim time & how much actual (as in real plane) did you get?

This was in 1990 with Mike Pappas at Professional Airline Systems. He is now Pacific Airline Systems. I understand that Mike has been seriously ill. I would not know if he's operating currently.

We got about 1.5 in a non-motion AST-300-type ground trainer and 2.0 actual flight training/rating ride in the airplane, along with three days of ground school. You sign up and Mike sends you a CE-500 manual, which you should read thoroughly before class.