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mattpilot said:uhm.. your supposed to go through all of em.. Don't stop after Berlin
After you've done some 20 or so it will tell you your total - I'm curious
Bah, 10263. I probably averaged a little over 100, except forabout three that I didn't know, and one that I got screwed on cause ofmy mouse.
But seriously, you can name one city in the best part of the US can't you?
mattpilot
Finally! Graphical TFRs!!
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2003
- Posts
- 1,144
mattpilot said:http://www.rtl.de/news/games/europa_dart/
Tell me how good you are - i bet you won't make it below 10000km on first try. First try i got 987km.
3608 here, and I don't even speak German (or whatever language thatwas). Not bad for an 'ignorant' American. How the heck did youget rid of the d@mn ad on the bottom. Couldn't even throw the dart atthe bottom of the map because of it.
YaMama
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2003
- Posts
- 97
I think this is a good debate on what PFT really is:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=21664&page=1&pp=15
To summarize, I agree with mcjohn that some people have serious emotional issues when it comes to PFT, and it basically just comes down to whining about the laws of supply and demand. What is commonly referred to as PFT is just another point on the spectrum of what people will do to get ahead, and unless you've never paid for a single hour of flight time you have no place being righteous, because there's somebody out there who paid for less training than you did.
I didn't pay for anything after my CFI, but I think that people need to do what's right for them and stop getting so much heartburn if the other guy does something different. Or if you feel that strongly about it, start a nationwide union that includes everybody with a commercial pilot's license.
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=21664&page=1&pp=15
To summarize, I agree with mcjohn that some people have serious emotional issues when it comes to PFT, and it basically just comes down to whining about the laws of supply and demand. What is commonly referred to as PFT is just another point on the spectrum of what people will do to get ahead, and unless you've never paid for a single hour of flight time you have no place being righteous, because there's somebody out there who paid for less training than you did.
I didn't pay for anything after my CFI, but I think that people need to do what's right for them and stop getting so much heartburn if the other guy does something different. Or if you feel that strongly about it, start a nationwide union that includes everybody with a commercial pilot's license.
BornAgainPagan
No Gods. No Masters.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Posts
- 752
PFT is not just another career route. It is unprofessional and hurts everyone. Back when PFT was more rampant, Comair, Coex etc were hiring pilots based on their willingness to pay over pilots with more experience that would not pay. Something is very wrong with this picture. Do you think the airlines would have wanted that known to its' passengers? No. But that was exactly what was happening.
Take the time to read the following. The writer is very wise and you might learn something about life.
A Letter To The Industry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following letter was posted on the ProPilot Bulletin Board in December, 1997. It contains so much great advice that it should be considered mandatory reading for anyone considering a career as an airline pilot.
ProPilot Webmaster
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, friends, as the singer said, “the times they are a changin’...” We have entered an era of Pay-For-Training/Pay-For-A-Job. But, I don’t mean the PFT where a pilot pays for his/her airline ground school and flight training. I mean the PFT practiced by US aviation universities. That’s right, our own schools are practicing PFT right before our very eyes. How?? Here are a couple examples:
1. Come to one large mid-western school in the northern plains, and participate in their highly regarded program for selected students. At the end of 4 years, find yourself assigned as an F/O in a 4-engine regional jet with a large regional airline. Yes! You! Mr./Ms. newly-minted commercial pilot. Just sign up with us, pay your money, and away you go. We taught you all you need to know... By the way, several captains with the major airline affiliated with the regional describe this situation as a “CRM nightmare”.
2. Come to a large beach-front school near the Southeastern branch of Mickey Mouse World, and get a job with a large regional. Maybe even a type-rating on their brand new BE-1900 or B-737 sims (Level D, of course). Again, pay your money, get your degree, we’ll get you “in” with a regional and you can bypass all those poor slobs that are getting real experience...
While I will be the last one to knock giving opportunities to those who have earned them, I will be the first to say “Whoa” when we get ahead of ourselves. The last thing we want to do is create a situation that “sets-up” our future pilots for failure. Let’s step back and examine what we need in this industry. We need proficient, knowledgeable, educated, well-rounded pilots. We need pilots who are well-schooled in regulatory issues, aeronautics, aerodynamics, CRM, human factors, aircraft technological advances, advanced avionics, and safety. These same pilots must also be able to fly, and be able to handle the airplane and manage its systems in all types of weather, ATC/airport congestion, and in unforeseen situations. And these pilots must be able to contribute to the success of the flight as a fully-functioning member of a two- or three-pilot crew.
How do we “create” these pilots of tomorrow? Education, flight training, and CRM training are major elements of this training. First, they need to be educated. While a 4-year degree is not a requirement to be a good pilot, the 4-year degree is the accepted standard used by Human Resource managers at most large carriers (regional and major) to screen candidates for educational accomplishments. The hiring boom that has begun may lead to a supply-and-demand situation that dictates reduction or elimination of this requirement, but don’t bet on it. “Educated” is a broad term, but should mean schooling in the subject areas that I listed as necessary for a good pilot, plus a well-rounded general education. The aviation colleges seem to do a pretty good job of educating our future pilots. The technical education offered by these schools is superb. Secondly, the pilot of tomorrow, like the pilot of today, needs real flight time and experience. The examples that follow are actual situations that have occurred at aviation colleges (large and small) that involve creative (and illegal) logging of flight time:
1. Two pilots in a Multi-engine airplane, with a CFI in back. All 3 logging PIC time.
2. Two pilots going to NIFA in a CE-150. No “hood”. Neither a CFI. Both logging PIC time.
3. Pilots logging time in a simulator/FTD as “Multi” and “Total” flight time.
4. Pilot on jump-seat of a B-727. Pilot’s father is the Captain. Dad signs off “4th in command” time in son’s logbook. Son now with regional carrier. Professor proud of his student and supports this method of gaining B-727 time.
Let’s get real folks! Pilots need to be exposed to actual flying to develop the motor skills, flow patterns, and habits that are used sub-consciously by experienced pilots. While training in simulators is known to be superior in many ways to training in an airplane, at some point, the pilot needs to get out in the real world and do some actual flying. This allows full integration and correlation of skill and knowledge in a real-time flight scenario. The result of such training and experience is the development of the “spare mental capacity” that is required to deal with the situations and contingencies that are inherent to all flights. At the commercial pilot level (new pilot), these skills are well-honed for local operations. But the pilot has very little experience in the IFR system, all weather operations, complex aircraft operations, high-density airport operations, mountain flying, etc. The new pilot will quickly find that all the “simulation” in the world cannot prepare him or her for the tasks at hand.
This rampant logging of questionable flight time hurts not only those who are scrupulously honest in logging their time accurately, but also hurts those who log this “bogus” time. Yes, flight time is one of the means used by airlines to select pilots. This is unfortunate, as flight time does not always reflect quality or breadth of experience, but it is the reality of the current hiring situation. Please, university faculty, make sure you lead the way in promoting integrity in your students’ logging of flight time. If you don’t they may fall flat on their butts when put to the test. If that test is “for real” in an airplane, people will die.
Go back and read that last sentence. If you are tempted to “pad” your logbook with meaningless time, instead of working to build quality experience, go back and read it again until you are convinced. Accidents happen in this business. They happen for a variety of reasons, but human factors (usually pilot factors) are the leading cause. When accidents happen, people die. Training and experience are two of our best defenses against these accidents. You owe it to yourself, your crew, your passengers, your airline, your family, your friends, your fellow pilots, and your profession to be proficient and qualified.
I’ll bet a few of you are wound-up by now and asking the age-old question, “Yeah, but how do I get that experience?”. We’ll get to that shortly, but please don’t try to get that experience as part of an airline crew. The First Officer is NOT a trainee. The F/O is a highly qualified pro who is, by law, qualified to perform the same tasks (with minor exceptions) as the Captain on his/her checkrides. The Captain and the F/O (and F/E, if you’re lucky enough to work with one of these increasingly rare types) are a CREW. While most F/Os lack the depth of experience of the captain (especially in the particular aircraft type), they are light-years ahead of new commercial pilots in all aspects of flying ability, knowledge and experience. The crew interact as experienced operators to create a safe and efficient flight environment. This experience that they possess did not come from attending classes, nor from CRM exercises; it came from years of flying airplanes.
Get your experience the old-fashioned way. Go out and fly as PIC in an airplane you can handle. Learn it well. Fly other airplanes. Learn their characteristics. Become a pro (this is a state of mind -- an attitude toward your profession). Flight instruction, while not involving a lot of “stick time”, will teach you more about flying than you have learned while obtaining your commercial pilot certificate. Pipeline patrol, sightseeing, aerial photography, skydiving operations (they jump, you stay in your seat), are all good for building experience. Get on with a charter operator. Fly night freight. Fly in the military. As you transition from one type to a more complex type (at a rate you can handle), you’ll build that elusive experience (which would be better measured by years, seasons and number of flights, rather than by hours).
(continued in next post)
Take the time to read the following. The writer is very wise and you might learn something about life.
A Letter To The Industry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following letter was posted on the ProPilot Bulletin Board in December, 1997. It contains so much great advice that it should be considered mandatory reading for anyone considering a career as an airline pilot.
ProPilot Webmaster
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, friends, as the singer said, “the times they are a changin’...” We have entered an era of Pay-For-Training/Pay-For-A-Job. But, I don’t mean the PFT where a pilot pays for his/her airline ground school and flight training. I mean the PFT practiced by US aviation universities. That’s right, our own schools are practicing PFT right before our very eyes. How?? Here are a couple examples:
1. Come to one large mid-western school in the northern plains, and participate in their highly regarded program for selected students. At the end of 4 years, find yourself assigned as an F/O in a 4-engine regional jet with a large regional airline. Yes! You! Mr./Ms. newly-minted commercial pilot. Just sign up with us, pay your money, and away you go. We taught you all you need to know... By the way, several captains with the major airline affiliated with the regional describe this situation as a “CRM nightmare”.
2. Come to a large beach-front school near the Southeastern branch of Mickey Mouse World, and get a job with a large regional. Maybe even a type-rating on their brand new BE-1900 or B-737 sims (Level D, of course). Again, pay your money, get your degree, we’ll get you “in” with a regional and you can bypass all those poor slobs that are getting real experience...
While I will be the last one to knock giving opportunities to those who have earned them, I will be the first to say “Whoa” when we get ahead of ourselves. The last thing we want to do is create a situation that “sets-up” our future pilots for failure. Let’s step back and examine what we need in this industry. We need proficient, knowledgeable, educated, well-rounded pilots. We need pilots who are well-schooled in regulatory issues, aeronautics, aerodynamics, CRM, human factors, aircraft technological advances, advanced avionics, and safety. These same pilots must also be able to fly, and be able to handle the airplane and manage its systems in all types of weather, ATC/airport congestion, and in unforeseen situations. And these pilots must be able to contribute to the success of the flight as a fully-functioning member of a two- or three-pilot crew.
How do we “create” these pilots of tomorrow? Education, flight training, and CRM training are major elements of this training. First, they need to be educated. While a 4-year degree is not a requirement to be a good pilot, the 4-year degree is the accepted standard used by Human Resource managers at most large carriers (regional and major) to screen candidates for educational accomplishments. The hiring boom that has begun may lead to a supply-and-demand situation that dictates reduction or elimination of this requirement, but don’t bet on it. “Educated” is a broad term, but should mean schooling in the subject areas that I listed as necessary for a good pilot, plus a well-rounded general education. The aviation colleges seem to do a pretty good job of educating our future pilots. The technical education offered by these schools is superb. Secondly, the pilot of tomorrow, like the pilot of today, needs real flight time and experience. The examples that follow are actual situations that have occurred at aviation colleges (large and small) that involve creative (and illegal) logging of flight time:
1. Two pilots in a Multi-engine airplane, with a CFI in back. All 3 logging PIC time.
2. Two pilots going to NIFA in a CE-150. No “hood”. Neither a CFI. Both logging PIC time.
3. Pilots logging time in a simulator/FTD as “Multi” and “Total” flight time.
4. Pilot on jump-seat of a B-727. Pilot’s father is the Captain. Dad signs off “4th in command” time in son’s logbook. Son now with regional carrier. Professor proud of his student and supports this method of gaining B-727 time.
Let’s get real folks! Pilots need to be exposed to actual flying to develop the motor skills, flow patterns, and habits that are used sub-consciously by experienced pilots. While training in simulators is known to be superior in many ways to training in an airplane, at some point, the pilot needs to get out in the real world and do some actual flying. This allows full integration and correlation of skill and knowledge in a real-time flight scenario. The result of such training and experience is the development of the “spare mental capacity” that is required to deal with the situations and contingencies that are inherent to all flights. At the commercial pilot level (new pilot), these skills are well-honed for local operations. But the pilot has very little experience in the IFR system, all weather operations, complex aircraft operations, high-density airport operations, mountain flying, etc. The new pilot will quickly find that all the “simulation” in the world cannot prepare him or her for the tasks at hand.
This rampant logging of questionable flight time hurts not only those who are scrupulously honest in logging their time accurately, but also hurts those who log this “bogus” time. Yes, flight time is one of the means used by airlines to select pilots. This is unfortunate, as flight time does not always reflect quality or breadth of experience, but it is the reality of the current hiring situation. Please, university faculty, make sure you lead the way in promoting integrity in your students’ logging of flight time. If you don’t they may fall flat on their butts when put to the test. If that test is “for real” in an airplane, people will die.
Go back and read that last sentence. If you are tempted to “pad” your logbook with meaningless time, instead of working to build quality experience, go back and read it again until you are convinced. Accidents happen in this business. They happen for a variety of reasons, but human factors (usually pilot factors) are the leading cause. When accidents happen, people die. Training and experience are two of our best defenses against these accidents. You owe it to yourself, your crew, your passengers, your airline, your family, your friends, your fellow pilots, and your profession to be proficient and qualified.
I’ll bet a few of you are wound-up by now and asking the age-old question, “Yeah, but how do I get that experience?”. We’ll get to that shortly, but please don’t try to get that experience as part of an airline crew. The First Officer is NOT a trainee. The F/O is a highly qualified pro who is, by law, qualified to perform the same tasks (with minor exceptions) as the Captain on his/her checkrides. The Captain and the F/O (and F/E, if you’re lucky enough to work with one of these increasingly rare types) are a CREW. While most F/Os lack the depth of experience of the captain (especially in the particular aircraft type), they are light-years ahead of new commercial pilots in all aspects of flying ability, knowledge and experience. The crew interact as experienced operators to create a safe and efficient flight environment. This experience that they possess did not come from attending classes, nor from CRM exercises; it came from years of flying airplanes.
Get your experience the old-fashioned way. Go out and fly as PIC in an airplane you can handle. Learn it well. Fly other airplanes. Learn their characteristics. Become a pro (this is a state of mind -- an attitude toward your profession). Flight instruction, while not involving a lot of “stick time”, will teach you more about flying than you have learned while obtaining your commercial pilot certificate. Pipeline patrol, sightseeing, aerial photography, skydiving operations (they jump, you stay in your seat), are all good for building experience. Get on with a charter operator. Fly night freight. Fly in the military. As you transition from one type to a more complex type (at a rate you can handle), you’ll build that elusive experience (which would be better measured by years, seasons and number of flights, rather than by hours).
(continued in next post)
BornAgainPagan
No Gods. No Masters.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Posts
- 752
(continued from previous post)
While we’re on the issue of experience, let’s cut through all the crap that you hear about type ratings. At 250 hours you’ve got as much business being in command of a Citation, Beechjet, BE1900, or B-737, as you do in command of the Space Shuttle. Yup. That’s what I said. “In Command”. That means you’re “it”. You are the final authority as to the conduct of the flight. You help to create a comfortable, well-run flight-deck. You contribute. You listen. You discuss. You direct. You teach. You learn. You fly. You support. You make decisions. You handle problems. The other pilot(s) look to you for mature, seasoned, sound judgment. Sorry, but at your level, you’re just not ready. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is setting you up for a big fall, or just wants your money. I realize that you can probably pass the type-rating check, but that is a snap compared to what will be required of you as a captain. After all, that is what that piece of paper entitles you to do -- act as PIC of that type aircraft, with a brand-new low-experience SIC sitting next to you, a bunch of trusting souls in the back, absolutely at-minimums weather at your destination, with an alternate that is no piece of cake either, and handle anything that might go “Murphy’s way”. Don’t be fooled into thinking you are ready for that. Instead, ask yourself why your school is offering that type-rating. Could it be to draw more students? Those simulators cost MILLIONS of dollars, dollars that could be spent on an education you need and flight experience you can use (or maybe not spent at all, with lower tuition the outcome). Tell your school to put away the expensive unusable toys.
Last, but certainly not least, pilots need a solid grounding in CRM. Practice CRM techniques every time you fly. Fly with other pilots. You must be able to interact in a crew environment, and the time to start learning is now. The benefits of solid CRM programs are recognized throughout the world as contributing to a safer flying environment by maximizing the crew’s synergy. I realize this is hard to do in the situation most of you find yourselves in, but do the best you can -- it will pay off in the future. Try to fly with a single-pilot operator. Even if you don’t get much actual “stick time”, you’ll gain important experience by watching and participating. Most of these pilots would be happy to help someone else, and happy to have the extra set of eyes and ears. One last thought, attend a good CRM course.
Now, let me set the record straight. I am not a “Grinch”, nor am I an old curmudgeon. I have seen hard times, but I’ve been incredibly blessed with some very good deals in my career. I merely see us, as an industry, irresponsibly creating some very un-realistic expectations for our next generation of pilots.
To My Fellow Pilots:
Keep holding the standards high and protecting the profession. We all know that there is no easy way to succeed. Do all you can to encourage and assist these future pilots, and help them to understand that the “no easy way” method might help to save their ass someday.
To Airline Management:
Give new pilots all the breaks you can. But realize that at some point PFT brings you pilots with money (or debt) and does not bring you the best group of pilots you could get. By the way, do you advocate PFT for managers, or do they need to have an established “track record”? That’s what I thought....
To University Faculty and Administrators:
Please do not allow the lure of high student volume, or the pressure put on you by the administration to cause you to lose sight of your real job. Your job is to mold, develop, guide, encourage, teach and assist some very talented young (and not so young) pilots on their path to careers as professional pilots. They must be aware that real success is not achieved overnight. They must be well-prepared for the future. “Looking good on paper” doesn’t count. You are their link to reality. You are the industry’s link to the future.
To Future Pilots:
You are the future. Please push yourself. Don’t expect a quick route to the majors. You’re gonna work your butt off to be successful. Study hard. Study beyond the required courses. Learn everything you can about your profession, including its history. There’s a lot in our history we don’t want to repeat. Insist on being ”pushed” in your flight training. Set your standards extremely high. Be a pro. Settle in for the long haul -- you’re in a tough career, but one with many rewards. Enjoy the good breaks you’ll get in your career. Display integrity. Demand the best from yourself on every flight. Set a positive example. Learn, and never stop learning. Teach, and never stop teaching. Remember those who helped you in your training and in your career, and be sure to “pass it on” to others who will need your help someday. You’re coming into a great hiring boom, and opportunities will be there. Don’t ever give up. Good luck. God bless. Fly safe.
(Signed)
An Anonymous B747 Captain Who Cares
While we’re on the issue of experience, let’s cut through all the crap that you hear about type ratings. At 250 hours you’ve got as much business being in command of a Citation, Beechjet, BE1900, or B-737, as you do in command of the Space Shuttle. Yup. That’s what I said. “In Command”. That means you’re “it”. You are the final authority as to the conduct of the flight. You help to create a comfortable, well-run flight-deck. You contribute. You listen. You discuss. You direct. You teach. You learn. You fly. You support. You make decisions. You handle problems. The other pilot(s) look to you for mature, seasoned, sound judgment. Sorry, but at your level, you’re just not ready. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is setting you up for a big fall, or just wants your money. I realize that you can probably pass the type-rating check, but that is a snap compared to what will be required of you as a captain. After all, that is what that piece of paper entitles you to do -- act as PIC of that type aircraft, with a brand-new low-experience SIC sitting next to you, a bunch of trusting souls in the back, absolutely at-minimums weather at your destination, with an alternate that is no piece of cake either, and handle anything that might go “Murphy’s way”. Don’t be fooled into thinking you are ready for that. Instead, ask yourself why your school is offering that type-rating. Could it be to draw more students? Those simulators cost MILLIONS of dollars, dollars that could be spent on an education you need and flight experience you can use (or maybe not spent at all, with lower tuition the outcome). Tell your school to put away the expensive unusable toys.
Last, but certainly not least, pilots need a solid grounding in CRM. Practice CRM techniques every time you fly. Fly with other pilots. You must be able to interact in a crew environment, and the time to start learning is now. The benefits of solid CRM programs are recognized throughout the world as contributing to a safer flying environment by maximizing the crew’s synergy. I realize this is hard to do in the situation most of you find yourselves in, but do the best you can -- it will pay off in the future. Try to fly with a single-pilot operator. Even if you don’t get much actual “stick time”, you’ll gain important experience by watching and participating. Most of these pilots would be happy to help someone else, and happy to have the extra set of eyes and ears. One last thought, attend a good CRM course.
Now, let me set the record straight. I am not a “Grinch”, nor am I an old curmudgeon. I have seen hard times, but I’ve been incredibly blessed with some very good deals in my career. I merely see us, as an industry, irresponsibly creating some very un-realistic expectations for our next generation of pilots.
To My Fellow Pilots:
Keep holding the standards high and protecting the profession. We all know that there is no easy way to succeed. Do all you can to encourage and assist these future pilots, and help them to understand that the “no easy way” method might help to save their ass someday.
To Airline Management:
Give new pilots all the breaks you can. But realize that at some point PFT brings you pilots with money (or debt) and does not bring you the best group of pilots you could get. By the way, do you advocate PFT for managers, or do they need to have an established “track record”? That’s what I thought....
To University Faculty and Administrators:
Please do not allow the lure of high student volume, or the pressure put on you by the administration to cause you to lose sight of your real job. Your job is to mold, develop, guide, encourage, teach and assist some very talented young (and not so young) pilots on their path to careers as professional pilots. They must be aware that real success is not achieved overnight. They must be well-prepared for the future. “Looking good on paper” doesn’t count. You are their link to reality. You are the industry’s link to the future.
To Future Pilots:
You are the future. Please push yourself. Don’t expect a quick route to the majors. You’re gonna work your butt off to be successful. Study hard. Study beyond the required courses. Learn everything you can about your profession, including its history. There’s a lot in our history we don’t want to repeat. Insist on being ”pushed” in your flight training. Set your standards extremely high. Be a pro. Settle in for the long haul -- you’re in a tough career, but one with many rewards. Enjoy the good breaks you’ll get in your career. Display integrity. Demand the best from yourself on every flight. Set a positive example. Learn, and never stop learning. Teach, and never stop teaching. Remember those who helped you in your training and in your career, and be sure to “pass it on” to others who will need your help someday. You’re coming into a great hiring boom, and opportunities will be there. Don’t ever give up. Good luck. God bless. Fly safe.
(Signed)
An Anonymous B747 Captain Who Cares
mattpilot said:Off the top of my head? Hmm... Seattle? Chicago? I don't know any inbetween those two cities - except maybe denver, though that is a little lower.
At least you understood the point i was trying to make - good job
edit: got one... Salt lake city - man.. i'm so proud of myself
The best part of the country is Oregon and Washington, so Seattle is correct!
wrxpilot
The proud, the few
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Posts
- 901
realityman said:
Uh, realityman... An electrical engineer and an electrician are vastly different fields. It's like saying a bus driver is an airline pilot. A terrible analogy, because I know some very talented electricians.
When I went to college for engineering, my college was NOT billing me out to clients as an undergrad. If they were, I (and everybody else) would've told them to f*** themselves.
Once you have your undergrad degree as an engineer (sorta like having an MEI/CFII for a pilot) and are working for a company, a lot of the time the company will pay for more advances degrees (MBA, MS, etc.).
realityman
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2004
- Posts
- 782
wrxpilot,
My apologies. I was attempting to make an analogy in a field I didn't really know anything about. Guess it didn't work out as expected. Oh well. I'll just have to stick to aviation analogies and quantum physics.
FarginD,
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. An ATP is a very generalized form of education in aviation. It means you can pretty much fly to very tight standards. So it's part of your aviation education. Everyone pretty much covers that themselves. A type rating is very specific and varies from one employer to the next as to what type of type rating they need for you to fly for them. SWA flys 737's. THEY should train you on their equipment. Yes, I realize you get training when you are hired, but you have to come in with the type. You may not be paying them directly, but you're sure saving them some money, and you're dishing out that money to get the job. Isn't that PFT? I've never heard of anyone being required to get a 717 type on their own dime to fly at Airtran. Nobody has to buy an Airbus type to fly at JB. Gosh, which type would you decide on for any of the other majors or frieght haulers, etc....They ALL hire you and THEN train you themselves on their equipment. Just because SWA is a good job doesn't mean it's not PFT.
Oh, and I hate to break the news to you, but I don't have any "PFT sins". I've always been trained by the companies that hired me. I do, however, remember what it was like to be a young pilot with very little experience trying to get a job in an industry that says, "We won't hire you unless you have experience" but you can't get experience unless you get hired somewhere. Flying is EXPENSIVE, so spend it however you best feel it will get you ahead in this industry.
My apologies. I was attempting to make an analogy in a field I didn't really know anything about. Guess it didn't work out as expected. Oh well. I'll just have to stick to aviation analogies and quantum physics.
FarginD,
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. An ATP is a very generalized form of education in aviation. It means you can pretty much fly to very tight standards. So it's part of your aviation education. Everyone pretty much covers that themselves. A type rating is very specific and varies from one employer to the next as to what type of type rating they need for you to fly for them. SWA flys 737's. THEY should train you on their equipment. Yes, I realize you get training when you are hired, but you have to come in with the type. You may not be paying them directly, but you're sure saving them some money, and you're dishing out that money to get the job. Isn't that PFT? I've never heard of anyone being required to get a 717 type on their own dime to fly at Airtran. Nobody has to buy an Airbus type to fly at JB. Gosh, which type would you decide on for any of the other majors or frieght haulers, etc....They ALL hire you and THEN train you themselves on their equipment. Just because SWA is a good job doesn't mean it's not PFT.
Oh, and I hate to break the news to you, but I don't have any "PFT sins". I've always been trained by the companies that hired me. I do, however, remember what it was like to be a young pilot with very little experience trying to get a job in an industry that says, "We won't hire you unless you have experience" but you can't get experience unless you get hired somewhere. Flying is EXPENSIVE, so spend it however you best feel it will get you ahead in this industry.
enigma
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realityman said:
They DO train you on their equipment. SWA provides the same, ifnotbetter, newhire aircraft training than does any other 737 operator.
What about my friend who started out at AccessAirlines without a737type rating? He upgraded at Access and received his type intheprocess, who did he pay? Certainly not SWA. Matter of fact, he PAIDnoone. Your reasoning and logic are incorrect. You assume that theonlyway to become qualified for SWA is to pay for training. SWA doesNOTrequire that any applicant pay for training. Get over it, andquittrying to drag down SWA in your attempt to justify buying a job.
You must have forgotten that Valuejet was a buy a job outfit. Their newhires paid for the job and didn't even get a type.
Neither SWA, nor their agent, takes money from a newhire in exchange for employement. SWA is NOT PFT.
enigma
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You have to break this down into two categories. If you are hired like the Access example and you work there and you get typed, no that is not a PFT situation/.
At SWA, you have to be typed to be employed. Simple but not a pft job. Valujet was used as an example, was not pft. Was paid for interview process.
GIA is a PFT. While all the people here have indicated reasons why you might want to come up some harder way like flight instruction, someone else said it was dishonest. I beg to differ with that.
People apprentice, people get advanced degrees, people do all kinds of things to move themselves over other applicants for all type of jobs and professions and no one thinks anything about it.
At SWA, you have to be typed to be employed. Simple but not a pft job. Valujet was used as an example, was not pft. Was paid for interview process.
GIA is a PFT. While all the people here have indicated reasons why you might want to come up some harder way like flight instruction, someone else said it was dishonest. I beg to differ with that.
People apprentice, people get advanced degrees, people do all kinds of things to move themselves over other applicants for all type of jobs and professions and no one thinks anything about it.
Brett Hull
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realityman
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I hate to have to update you Enigma, but Valujet no longer exists. It's in the past. Netjets also had PFT, but no more.
I guess it's all just opinion then. If SWA interviews me and tells me I'm hired, and I don't have a 737 type, I get a certain amount of time to get the type, right? Now at the end of that time, if I return to SWA and tell them I didn't get the type, will they type me themselves and let me have the job anyway? I don't think so. I HAVE to buy a 737 type to fly for them! To me, that's PFT. Who cares who my money went to? All that matters to me is that X number of dollars came out of my pocket so I could fly for SWA. Hey, if you're lucky enough to come from another carrier that already got you a 737 type, then it's all good. But I still think that paying for a type rating on equipment the employer operates in order to get hired is PFT.
I guess I also don't understand why if SWA does such intensive newhire training they can't just do the type themselves. Any comments from SWA guys out there?
I guess it's all just opinion then. If SWA interviews me and tells me I'm hired, and I don't have a 737 type, I get a certain amount of time to get the type, right? Now at the end of that time, if I return to SWA and tell them I didn't get the type, will they type me themselves and let me have the job anyway? I don't think so. I HAVE to buy a 737 type to fly for them! To me, that's PFT. Who cares who my money went to? All that matters to me is that X number of dollars came out of my pocket so I could fly for SWA. Hey, if you're lucky enough to come from another carrier that already got you a 737 type, then it's all good. But I still think that paying for a type rating on equipment the employer operates in order to get hired is PFT.
I guess I also don't understand why if SWA does such intensive newhire training they can't just do the type themselves. Any comments from SWA guys out there?
bobbysamd
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Military v. civilian "controversy"
I, for one, cannot say there is animosity. It is reality. Military pilots, by virtue of their training, experience and personal qualities always go to the head of the line for airline hiring.
The airlines know, almost for sure, what they're getting in a military pilot. For one thing, most military pilots are officers. One has to make it through a screening process (1) to be accepted for officer training/ROTC/a service academy and (2) make it through that training. In effect, earning a commission is a de facto screening process for the airlines. (I'm not familiar with WO training, but these people, too, are high-quality and go through stringent training.) They have a good idea of the person's physical condition and fitness. They have an extremely good idea what traits the military pilot as a person will bring to the table in terms of following direction and discipline, among other things. They are less sure of these things in a civilian pilot.
Then, the airlines know for sure the training military pilots receive. Military pilot training is a known quantity. Civilian pilot training can be high quality, but variable. Finally, the airlines know the equipment military pilots fly. Sure, many military pilots fly fighters, but quite a few fly heavy equipment in a crew situation. The airlines know that training. They may know less about a civilian pilot's equipment and crew experience.
These are some reasons why military pilots go to the head of the hiring line. They are known quantities. Of course, none of this is to be construed as civilian pilots being of lesser quality. Some are; some are not.
You also need to include military pilots getting jobs ahead of experienced regional pilots, freight pilots and corporate pilots.mcjohn said:
I, for one, cannot say there is animosity. It is reality. Military pilots, by virtue of their training, experience and personal qualities always go to the head of the line for airline hiring.
The airlines know, almost for sure, what they're getting in a military pilot. For one thing, most military pilots are officers. One has to make it through a screening process (1) to be accepted for officer training/ROTC/a service academy and (2) make it through that training. In effect, earning a commission is a de facto screening process for the airlines. (I'm not familiar with WO training, but these people, too, are high-quality and go through stringent training.) They have a good idea of the person's physical condition and fitness. They have an extremely good idea what traits the military pilot as a person will bring to the table in terms of following direction and discipline, among other things. They are less sure of these things in a civilian pilot.
Then, the airlines know for sure the training military pilots receive. Military pilot training is a known quantity. Civilian pilot training can be high quality, but variable. Finally, the airlines know the equipment military pilots fly. Sure, many military pilots fly fighters, but quite a few fly heavy equipment in a crew situation. The airlines know that training. They may know less about a civilian pilot's equipment and crew experience.
These are some reasons why military pilots go to the head of the hiring line. They are known quantities. Of course, none of this is to be construed as civilian pilots being of lesser quality. Some are; some are not.
FarginDooshbahg
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realityman said:
Well, I could point out that I've never heard of anyone getting a "717" type at all, since there is no such thing. It is a "DC-9". But instead, I will just say that you are right. I will just agree that we disagree, and thank you for a non-confrontational, civil discourse, which is more than I can say for a lot of the "discussion" that goes on here.
Of course, I have participated in my share of these "discussions", even instigated many. But this was not one of them, so I thank you for your civil debate.
bobbysamd
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SW 737 type as P-F-T
No matter whether you bought a 737 type or brought one with you from another job, after Southwest hires you, pursuant to 14 CFR 121, it has to put you and all of its new-hire pilots through initial training. Southwest does not charge for initial training; therefore, it is not P-F-T.
It is not P-F-T. P-F-T is when you pay the company for training it is required to provide to you by regulation. P-F-T is strictly an employment issue, only.realityman said:
No matter whether you bought a 737 type or brought one with you from another job, after Southwest hires you, pursuant to 14 CFR 121, it has to put you and all of its new-hire pilots through initial training. Southwest does not charge for initial training; therefore, it is not P-F-T.
bobbysamd
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Gia
In the strict sense, GIA may not be dishonest, but it is an end-run around the traditional aviation hiring process. Most pilots build time the "harder way." They worked "hard" to get where they are and resent interlopers who try to cut in line.
H.R. could care less how pilots build time, as long as they can fit enough square pegs into square holes to fill interview slots. The pilot interview boards, comprised of pilots who likely put in the toil and sweat to climb the hiring ladder, are the ones who will care, and who might react by way of blackballs to P-F-T interlopers. If that happens, all that wonderful $29,284 worth of Gulfstream P-F-T 121 "experience" won't be worth a quarter.
As a management type, Pub, your comment comes as no surprise.Publishers said:
In the strict sense, GIA may not be dishonest, but it is an end-run around the traditional aviation hiring process. Most pilots build time the "harder way." They worked "hard" to get where they are and resent interlopers who try to cut in line.
H.R. could care less how pilots build time, as long as they can fit enough square pegs into square holes to fill interview slots. The pilot interview boards, comprised of pilots who likely put in the toil and sweat to climb the hiring ladder, are the ones who will care, and who might react by way of blackballs to P-F-T interlopers. If that happens, all that wonderful $29,284 worth of Gulfstream P-F-T 121 "experience" won't be worth a quarter.
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