freaked on Gulfstream Academy

[Publishers]

1. PFT supposedly results in the taking of a paid pilot position by someone paying for it. Southwest and the rest are not that so Realityman does not have that right at all.

2. As I said Bobby, in any other occupation that you want to take, people compete to advance ahead of others. To say about any one of them that they did not pay their dues to your satisfaction is ludicrous.

frankly if I need a multi engine rating to get a job and I go buy one and the other guy doesn't, what is the difference.

the taking the paid job of another is the argument, not jumping over others by taking short cuts.

 

[xjcaptain]

It is not P-F-T. P-F-T is when you pay the company for training it is required to provide to you by regulation. P-F-T is strictly an employment issue, only.

No matter whether you bought a 737 type or brought one with you from another job, after Southwest hires you, pursuant to 14 CFR 121, it has to put you and all of its new-hire pilots through initial training. Southwest does not charge for initial training; therefore, it is not P-F-T.

So just to be clear, if a regional required you to come in with a CRJ/ERJ/whatever type, but then sent you through initial it wouldn't be PFT? B.S. Why do you think some of these LCC can be low cost. Don't you think it saves them $$$ to have a pilot come in with a type? If they can get away with it that's their decision. But let's not try to rationalize that its O.K. because it's larger equipment, and it may be looking better and better to high time regional pilots that may have went elsewhere when times are better. I guess if you pay the pimp and not the prostitute directly you can say you're not paying for it. Kinda crude, but something to think about.

 

[enigma]

So just to be clear, if a regional required you tocomein with a CRJ/ERJ/whatever type, but then sent you through initialitwouldn't be PFT? B.S.

OK, I see the problem here. Some of you have fallen prey to the playonwords that is PFT. PFT is not about Training. IT NEVER HAD ANYTHINGTODO WITH TRAINING, because the trainingis mandated bythe FAA. It was, and is, buying a job. Pilots likeBobbysamd and myselfhave been fighting this misperception for years. Wefight because weremember the time when every new hire at some carriersmust bring acheck (for upwards of $10K) to class. He was required tobring thischeck no matter what his previous experience. It had nothingto do withtype ratings, etc. At one time, a pilot with a E120 type (saythat hewas a WestAir Captain before Risley shut em down) had to payComair$18K for his right seat, newhire training if he wanted a job.People, Isay again, this has nothing to do with training. Purely andsimply, acompletely qualified pilot was required to buy the job. That'swrong,and I'll continue to speak against it.

enigma

 

[WMUSIGPI]

mcjohn,


Let's say you wanted to be an electrician or something similar that requires a working knowledge of electricty and wiring and such. Wouldn't you go to college and get a degree in something like electrical engineering? Who would be paying for that college? The future company you hope to work for? NO! You and your family would foot the bill. So there you would be, starting work with an electrical company with a large amount of school debt and the company would probably still have to train you in certain specifics of the job. So what's the difference between that scenario and GAA?

The difference is the electrical engineer is going to be paid a nice livable wage right out of school. 15-18 K is NOT a livable wage especially for a college grad.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I hate to have to update you Enigma, but Valujet no longer exists. It's in the past. Netjets also had PFT, but no more.

I guess it's all just opinion then. If SWA interviews me and tells me I'm hired, and I don't have a 737 type, I get a certain amount of time to get the type, right? Now at the end of that time, if I return to SWA and tell them I didn't get the type, will they type me themselves and let me have the job anyway? I don't think so. I HAVE to buy a 737 type to fly for them! To me, that's PFT. Who cares who my money went to? All that matters to me is that X number of dollars came out of my pocket so I could fly for SWA. Hey, if you're lucky enough to come from another carrier that already got you a 737 type, then it's all good. But I still think that paying for a type rating on equipment the employer operates in order to get hired is PFT.

I guess I also don't understand why if SWA does such intensive newhire training they can't just do the type themselves. Any comments from SWA guys out there?

The same could be said about medicals too. I only kept a 3rd class while flight instructing. But when I started looking to move on I got a 1st class because otherwise I couldn't be a FO anywhere. Should the hiring company have given me the job without it. True I wouldn't have needed it til I was ready to fly the line. What about the Commercial cert. shouldn't they have paid me like all the international airlines were doing for their students during training at the same place I was training. There is such thing as minimum qualifications to apply. Believe me if you don't meet minimum qualifications you probably aren't going to get the call in any career.
With that said I do agree that Gulfstream, Eagle Jet ect are garbage. For that matter I don't agree with Pinnacle not providing housing or pay during training. But to say that I don't like the minimum requirements to apply for the job.... Have you noticed all the corporate jobs that require time in type and a type rating to apply. I don't see all the SWA haters foaming about these jobs.

 

[enigma]

I hate to have to update you Enigma, but Valujet nolonger exists. It's in the past. Netjets also had PFT, but no more.

Man this almost slipped past me. ValueJet does exist. They boughtAirTran and took over the name. Happily, the vast majority of theirpilots were hired after the buy a job deal was ended, but the originalValueJet corps did in fact buy their jobs.

enigma

 

[mayday1]

Man this almost slipped past me. ValueJet does exist. They boughtAirTran and took over the name. Happily, the vast majority of theirpilots were hired after the buy a job deal was ended, but the originalValueJet corps did in fact buy their jobs.

enigma

out of curiosity, what was the deal with ValueJet.. i.e. what was the PFT arrangement?

 

[bobbysamd]

SW as P-F-T

I guess it's all just opinion then. If SWA interviews me and tells me I'm hired, and I don't have a 737 type, I get a certain amount of time to get the type, right? Now at the end of that time, if I return to SWA and tell them I didn't get the type, will they type me themselves and let me have the job anyway? I don't think so. I HAVE to buy a 737 type to fly for them! To me, that's PFT.

A rose, by any other name . . . .

But, once more, P-F-T is strictly an employment issue. Why is that so difficult to understand??

In the Southwest case, many pilots already have the type, obtained on someone's nickel. Yes, you do need a 737 type to work there - just as you would need a Lear type if some corporation that flies Lears required one. Once more, pursuant to 14 CFR 121, must give you initial training. Does Southwest have a condition of employment requiring pilots to pay for that training?? No. If it did, then, absolutely, it would be P-F-T. But it does not. Therein lies the difference.

 

[bobbysamd]

You got to pay your dues if you want to sing the blues . . .

. . . . and, you know, it don't come easy.

Apologies to Ringo, but, still, an apt theme for this post:

1. PFT supposedly results in the taking of a paid pilot position by someone paying for it . . . .

2. As I said Bobby, in any other occupation that you want to take, people compete to advance ahead of others. To say about any one of them that they did not pay their dues to your satisfaction is ludicrous.

What is ludicrous is anyone with a checkbook can buy a job by way of P-F-T.

Some of these P-F-T outfits advertise that they are selective. That is BS. Reread what I just wrote. To get a job for free that would be comparable to P-F-T, one needs qualifications and wherewithal. To acquire both one instructs, flies night freight (in often dilpidated equipment), or whatever. In other words, they work hard. They build qualifications and experience. That's what "paying dues" is all about. Paying, e.g., Gulfstream for 250 hours of 121 "time" is not "paying dues." That is just "paying."

Finally, writing proactively, there will be those who peg MAPD as P-F-T. I worked there. It is not. MAPD is a 141 flight school, oriented toward Mesa Airlines, for sure, but that's all. Yes, Mesa can interview you after you graduate and it can hire you, but the only thing MAPD promises you is it will train you for your initial ratings and send you to San Juan College for your A.S. That's all.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T, back to the future

OK, I see the problem here. Some of you have fallen prey to the play on words that is PFT. PFT is not about Training. IT NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH TRAINING, because the trainingis mandated by the FAA. It was, and is, buying a job. Pilots like Bobbysamd and myself have been fighting this misperception for years. We fight because we remember the time when every new hire at some carriers must bring a check (for upwards of $10K) to class. He was required to bring this check no matter what his previous experience. It had nothing to do with type ratings, etc. At one time, a pilot with a E120 type (say that he was a WestAir Captain before Risley shut em down) had to pay Comair $18K for his right seat, new hire training if he wanted a job. People, I say again, this has nothing to do with training. Purely and simply, acompletely qualified pilot was required to buy the job. That's wrong, and I'll continue to speak against it.

(emphasis added)

Enigma has just described exactly what went on in the early 1990s (though there were still some regionals where one could be hired for free). I just would submit that ability to pay was a greater influence on being "hired" than qualifications and credentials. Absolutely, unquestionably, without a doubt, it was buying a job. It could be nothing else but. I refused.

(For those who claim I gave up, I did not soley because of P-F-T. I applied for several years to a number of non-P-F-T regionals. Go search my posts if you need to know more.)

Once again, aviation tradition, personal ethics and fraud aspects of P-F-T aside, wouldn't you feel embarassed and humiliated because you bought a job that others got for free?? Once more, it may be piloting and it may be the airlines, but it is still only a job.

Once more, think about it.

 

[bobbysamd]

So just to be clear, if a regional required you to come in with a CRJ/ERJ/whatever type, but then sent you through initial it wouldn't be PFT?

As long as said regional is not requiring you to pay for your initial it is not P-F-T. Same as Southwest, with a different name for the company.

Don't you think it saves them $$$ to have a pilot come in with a type?

Typing someone at an airline usually means a Captain upgrade. All new captains have to go through the same upgrade training, typed or not. So, it makes no difference.

I heard at one time that because Southwest applicants all have a 737 type that there was no sim ride during the interview. But, there are other airlines that don't require a sim ride, type rating or not. So, any cost savings there would be nominal.

 

[UnAnswerd]

Technical definitions

A pilot, currently not employed in the industry, goes out to a school and spends 7K getting a 737 type-rating. This pilot was not asked to get a rating by a potential employer, nor was this pilot even trying to gain employability. In short, the pilot has some extra cash and wanted to do this "just for the hell of it". Has this pilot PFT'd??? Will he be looked down upon if ever hired into the industry???

 

[bobbysamd]

Type ratings as an employability aid

A pilot, currently not employed in the industry, goes out to a school and spends 7K getting a 737 type-rating. This pilot was not asked to get a rating by a potential employer, nor was this pilot even trying to gain employability. In short, the pilot has some extra cash and wanted to do this "just for the hell of it". Has this pilot PFT'd??? Will he be looked down upon if ever hired into the industry???

He might have a tough time convincing people that he bought the type only for the hell of it, but it will not be P-F-T.

Except for Southwest, a type rating purchase really does not help employability unless one already has time in type. I went for a Citation type because I thought it might demonstrate that I could be typed and had learned about turbine equipment. Perhaps it helped me get a couple of senior flight instructing jobs but it didn't help me otherwise. In any event, the $3K expended was tax-deductable and I had a great week in Carlsbad, California!

 

[mattpilot]

what citation type costs only 3k? How much sim time & how much actual (as in real plane) did you get?

 

[bobbysamd]

Professional (Pacific) Airline Systems

what citation type costs only 3k? How much sim time & how much actual (as in real plane) did you get?

This was in 1990 with Mike Pappas at Professional Airline Systems. He is now Pacific Airline Systems. I understand that Mike has been seriously ill. I would not know if he's operating currently.

We got about 1.5 in a non-motion AST-300-type ground trainer and 2.0 actual flight training/rating ride in the airplane, along with three days of ground school. You sign up and Mike sends you a CE-500 manual, which you should read thoroughly before class.