Fractional questions

[Twotter76]

OK you guys I am a regional pilot whose job security appears to be in short supply and I have to ask a stupid newbie question. If you were given the option of going to NetJets, Options, or CS where would you go given the current conditions at all three and why. I don't mind being away from home and I would like to live in the western US. I have seen the payscales for all three and while NJ seems to lag behind logic would dictate that they ought to get a healthy raise (maybe?) from the next TA when it gets done at least to the level of the other two if not higher (again be easy on me I am not that familiar with the fracs).

I think I would enjoy the varied kinds of flying that you all do and I like the 7 and 7 schedule though I realize it takes a while to be able to hold it. So what are your thoughts? What do you like or dislike about frac flying? I am sure that there are many there that came from the regionals - how do the two compare? Thanks

 

[gunfyter]

Citation Shares...

I believe it is possible to upgrade to PIC in first yr. I believe It is not possible at the others for several yrs.

 

[Fracster]

Never worked at a regional so my info will not have any comparisons.

The Fracs are all the same. The flying is fun although it does get to be a drag sometimes. Tons of catering. At NJA you will gain 15 pounds the first year if your not careful. Benefits are probably all the same. Pay sucks. Go to http://www.airlinepilotpay.com./ and do some research.

NJA has a Flex(19 days), 17 days, and 7/7 schedules. The flex can only be bid, not assigned.

NJA wouldnt be so bad except for the pay. Other guys want more bennies or retirement.

I'd say they are all the same though. I would go to Citation Shares because they make the most. We have the name and time will tell how that works out for us.

 

[Stinkbug]

If you've been doing the airline thing for a while the Frac lifestyle will take some getting used to. The day to day job is worlds apart from that of an airline pilot. At first I can honestly say I was doubtful that I'd made the right decision to leave my regional gig. I've since adjusted and truly come to love my job. The seven on, seven off schedule is wonderful...I make the most of my time off and make the best of my time on. The money is enough to live on and even buy a few toys. Given the state of aviation these days, there's few places I'd rather be.

And by the way, if you do take the plunge, go to CitationShares

Stinkbug

 

[Guitar Guy]

I chose NJA and to be honest, it took me a while to get here. I came from a regional (a very small one) and to be honest, I was quite bored with flying to the same cities, over and over and over. The fractionals looked really appealing to me. As for NJA specifically, I had several friends there and they were pleased with the company. I also liked that NJA is large and offers a wide range of aircraft. I'd really like to make this my career so having a lot of aircraft to fly is appealing. Also, NJA is a Berkshire-Hathaway company, so that made a difference to me, as Warren Buffett wouldn't invest in something he didn't believe in. Perhaps the pay isn't the greatest right now, but there's hope with the pending TA and I guess I try to be positive - I'd rather fly for NJA than be furloughed from a higher-paying gig. Plus, from limited time at NJA, they've treated me very well and their benefits package is really good - 401K with company matching, paid health benefits, etc.

Keep investigating and looking around. For every positive or negative comment you hear about a company, take it in stride and make up your own mind.

 

[Fracster]

Ok, Ive had a few G&T's so all this company luv is making me sick!!!!!

NJA IS NOT A CAREER JOB!!! PERIOD!!!!!

The day this sh!thole pays actual wages then, maybe, it will be a career job.

Rant aside don't come here thinking this is the end all be all. We are grossly under paid. More RON's, legs, time, etc.....

I wont pick on the happy to be here crowd because for many this is the best they have aver had. You can't fault anyone for that but in the end quality of life is what matter.

Being able to send your children to college, being able to take your wife to dinner, being home a reasonable amount, making enough to secure your retirement. Most of these items are impossible at NJA. 7 days off is great but when you work 12/12 every day, 14/10 many days you will need 7 days off because your first 1 or 2 days you are recovering.

At NJA you will start one day at 8:00am and end at 6 or 7 pm. the next day you will start after min rest and work 12 to 14 hours just to get min rest again and then out for 5 hours. Then you will plan on getting to be that night at reasonable time, say 11:00 or so, just to be woken for an un-briefed trip at 2 or 3 am. This is not rare but more the norm.

Again, this place is not the end of the world but too many people make it out to seem more than it is. Split the middle of what people say and there is your reality. Hell, PM me and I will get in contact with you and give you an honest scoop. One that doesnt include a gin and tonic.

 

[BRA]

Anyone have a ballpark estimate as to how many hours per year new hire pilots at these three fractionals fly?

 

[beechjetpilot1]

Any fractional is not a career job....Flops just today gave every pilot at least a $653/per year PAY CUT! Some got even a bigger cut. The have restructured the per diem and we are all loosing at least $653/year. This money has been paid to us for the 5 years I have worked here.....every month a new perk or part of the compensation package is removed. STAY AWAY!!! The part that really gets me mad is the waste involved company wide, but they keep cutting the pilot wages/compensation package. Several years ago I didn't know more than a handfull of people looking to get out of fractional flying at flops......now I have trouble finding a single person who wants to stay long term. Things have sure changed in this part of the industry in the past couple of years, and not for the better. Really do your research, ask fractional pilots you see on the road what life is really like, and ask yourself if this is right for you. The above posts refer to long duty days at Netjets......we have the same long duty days here. It is not uncommon to see 14hrs on/10hrs off for many days in a row. You are a mess when you get home. It usually takes a couple of days to recoup. Good luck!

 

[dime line]

What our pay cut at Flops is not a good thing? But they told me it was a good thing. but they give us "crew meals" and perdiem. I don't understand why anyone would not like this.

 

[PA31Driver]

What's the average flight time per month at NJA? Also, any idea when the new contract might be approved.....I have my NJA app filled out and ready to mail and was wondering if it is a good choice.

 

[Twotter76]

Thank you all for the intelligent responses - now some further questions if I haven't bored you all yet. What are competitive mins at at each respective company - I think I meet (exceed actually) the published mins for all of them but we all know that those are not the real numbers. Can anyone give me an idea of what the real mins are? Secondly how flexible are they in where you live? I saw that NJ has many domicles listed but can you change between them at your leisure or do there have to be openings in that particular domicle? How do the other two operate crew basing? Thanks again

Twotter76

 

[xrated]

Any fractional is not a career job....

Amen to that! Fractional flying is a very good 3-4 year job, and it is a descent place for retired airline folks to stretch it out a few more years. You should be able to keep your sanity in that length of time. Coming from a Regional, you will love the varitety of flying, may or may not love the plane you fly, though it will probably be more cramped. Plus you are treated fairly well......for a 3-4 year job. Hotels will be nicer, crew meals are usually pretty good, and the airline plus hotel points can make for a descent family vacation every year. But for those of us who have done it for more than a few years, the novilty wears off.

As for being competitive. If you've been at a regional for more than a couple years, you probably are competitive. But your chances of an interview increase substantially if you know sombody on the inside. I believe your chances at Options are pretty much nill if you don't have a connection. You might have a better chance at Netjets as their reputation has been raked over the coals in rescent months with the contract issues they've had. (before I get flamed though, I think they have much more potential than the rest) I'd say the domicile issue is as flexable as any in the industry...a big plus, but it does have its limits and it differs from company to company. It seemed to be a big issue during the rescent Netjet contract talks, so who knows what the future has in store with them?

Sombody asked about average flight time, I have no idea but I'm guessing it differs drastically from fleet to fleet.

Hope this helps.

 

[Texasskicker]

My two bits worth on the subject

I been around long enough, wantin to share with ya some wisdum.

Go in with yer eyes open, kid.

Beware of the schedule bait and switcheroo. Yea, if ya get 7 and 7, some weeks yer gonna work 10 days - 11 days whether ya want to or not. Gonna be asked to do overtime and ifin ya dont, gonna be no star next to yer name.

Start learnin to kiss some ass, cause unless you work for a union carrier, gotta climb the buddy system ladder and kiss many butts along the way to make it.

Reality check and talk to some of the guys in here who know the real inside story.

Good luck, son.

 

[Xdriver]

Ok I'll play been at NJA for almost 4 years. I came from a large regional where the upgrade was 5+ years. Is this better? no question to me yes. For everything negative I can find some positives to fractional flying. NJA has 28 crew bases that you can choose. If you wish to change bases all the company need's is 30 days notice. This can be done every month if you wish. Some pilots do this like say south FL in the winter (PBI) then go back to (MSP) in the summer. You said you wanted out west NJA has SAN,LAX,PHX,SLC,SEA,SFO,APA,LAS as bases out west.

Competitive time for NJA? From what I am hearing in new hire classes its been around 5,000 TT. Some are way more some are less. NJA is unlike no other place that is hiring they can pick who they want now. I will tell you it helps to know the right people here. If you know any NJA pilots get them to help you out.

New contract? The MEC election is Dec 22nd. No doubt the old MEC is out and a new aggressive MEC is in. It will be spring at least before anything is possible to get a vote on. It will all depend on the company. I know the future MEC is ready to roll day 1 in office. Im not going to tell you everything is ok here at NJA now either. This pilot group is very determined to see this contract thru to get the best possible deal. Anyone who has seen or talked to a NJA pilot knows the TA was so bad it was voted down by 83%. I dont fault the company. I fault our past MEC who had zero experiance at this and rolled over on just about everything. Ok enough about that!

I would be happy to field phone calls about NJA (just PM me) I wont sugar coat it. I wont try and sell it. It is what it is. I will say this I have several good friends that have been at options for 4-6 years. They have nothing, notta, zero good to say about the place ANYMORE. They all say it used to be good. Everytime they turn around options management is changing something or takeing something away.

At NJA good or bad we at least have a union. We have something in writting (now I lol because lots of times the company trys to violate the contract) but thats where the pilot comes in. One must know the contract not to be walked on. It is an education process just like SWA FEDEX AWA whoever its your responsibiliey to know your contract!

Oh and I think someone asked how much do we fly. Well in the CE-750 we fly our ass off. 2 years ago I did 700+ in one year. NJA has some planes that work more then others. If you want to fly and fly alot get into the X (honest if your have a good bird YOU WILL fly everyday) If you want to sit around and do nothing get the H-1000 or CE-650. The guys on the XL work alot to but some never get west of the misissippi for months. Dont know about the beechjet 400 because they just were delivered.

anyway hopes this helps questions PM me.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Can anyone give me an idea of what the real mins are? Secondly how flexible are they in where you live? I saw that NJ has many domicles listed but can you change between them at your leisure or do there have to be openings in that particular domicle? How do the other two operate crew basing? Thanks again

Twotter76

According to the NJA website, mins are 2500 TT, 500 fixed-wing ME, 250 instrument (which can be actual and simulated combined). The biggie for you might be that they require an ATP, as well as current 1st Class medical. I asked during the interview about the ATP requirement and it is a stipulation from their insurer, so it can't be waived. As for what's competitive, it's hard to say. What seems to matter is having an internal recommendation if you're lower time. The average NJA new-hire has approx. 5700 TT but I had less than that and I know several other new hires with even less time than me.

As for NJA bases, right now there are a bunch and you get to designate your own, there isn't a "bid system" for that. In Indoc, you simply state what your domicile is going to be, which is pretty darn nice after coming from an airline background.

 

[Publishers]

While everyone has a point, the thing is that all the fractionals are starting to level off from the times when they were really expanding. ?The deal at Flight Options being an example of that.

When everyone was just glad to have a job flying a few years back and being constantly upgraded to something bigger/quicker/faster, things seemed great. Now that has come to an end, there is bound to be more disgruntled pilots.

It is a good place for a pilot but only time will tell how good it can or will be. They are under tremendous pressure to perform both for shareholders and owners.

 

[Diesel]

Publishers- Why do you even troll here. You never got to play in the game. Just sit behind a desk while you tell everyone about this or that. When in reality you could never pull it off yourself. Couldn't handle life on the road? Or maybe the flying was too much for you? We've got a guy like that at NJA scared himself in a plane and can't fly again. Hmmmm sounds just like you. Get off the boards it's painful.

To clear up a few things at NJA. Texas says that he knows people working 10 days plus? That would never happen at NJA. Unless you choose to but if you extend your just helping the company and hurting yourself. It's black and white. After a 7 day tour they have to get you home. Period.

From what I hear they are hiring guys with the bare minimums. Turns out the pool that the company yapped about so long dried up. I know a buddy of mine hired with min time and and a rec.

As for if this company is a long term place to work. Don't ask me today.... Maybe tomorrow would be better.

 

[Hawkered]

Publishers, the only thing that has levelled off, or even declined is your career!

I often wonder whether other posts here are put as flame bait to defame the industry leader.

Netjets is doing extremely well. I was just contacted by a salesman as a personal thanks for sealing a deal on a large cabin jet with a highly discerning client. The same client has already referred another demo and its only been three days!!!

Mr Santulli and Marquis are collectively a bunch of geniuses!! I wish I had their insight.

Netjets has enormous projections for growth. The manufacturers are looking forward to some very strong sales growth here in the near future and the most conservative growth shows us adding another 450 pilots for 2005!!

 

[Diesel]

Heck hawkered we've allready added 250 pilots in the last 3 months.

A CS guy said they were doubling their pilot fleet by adding 125 next year. I said yeah we added 250 in the last 3 months. What's your point?

 

[Hawkered]

Couldn't agree with you more. So much for "levelling off".