Fractional flying dropped 10.6 percent in April

[Praetorian]

Pervis...I think you have to go to post #31 to get the gist of the issue. It stated that over 90% of professional pilots are unionized.

No question that most frac and airline pilots belong to a union, but in the business jet industry, less than 12% of the pilots belong to the union. Probably less than 10% as my assumption of 2 pilots per aircraft is conservative. Three pilots is more likely and that would put the business jet pilot population around 50,000.

Given the number of airline pilots, nobody would question that a majority of "commercial" pilots belong to a union, but certainly not 90%. The US airline fleet, including cargo, is only around 7,200 aircraft. The most recent US Bureau of Labor statistics show a total airline pilot census of around 100K.

The inference taken from the observation was that if you don't belong to a union, you're not a professional...disrespecting 99% of mgmt/charter shops, private/corporate flight departments, etc.

The poster admitted his figures were pulled from his 7th planet from the sun. Hopefully in the future, more accurate and precise data will be provided from alternative sources and words will be used in a more responsible manner so that feelings won't be hurt needlessly...

Ok Pythagoras, let's take a closer look at the numbers. As of the end of 2011 there were 142,511 ATP rated pilots. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_certification_in_the_United_States 103,500 of those pilots are airline pilots http://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/airline-and-commercial-pilots.htm

I'll let everyone draw from this information what you will. Because I believe in the axiom, "figures lie and liars figure". The Bureau of Labor statistics does not break out "pilots" specifically when listing the number of union members, instead they use the catchall "transportation workers".

 

[gret]

I guess you got me! What did you say?

Didn't I estimate there was around 100K of airline pilots and 34K to 50K of business jet pilots?

How many are you saying?

 

[Praetorian]

I guess you got me! What did you say?

Didn't I estimate there was around 100K of airline pilots and 34K to 50K of business jet pilots?

How many are you saying?

After spending some time today looking into the available but incomplete info, think the number is probably somewhere between 70 and 80 percent, for all professional pilots. However, as has been pointed out, almost every pilot group with more than 200 pilots on the property is unionized. I can only think of two, off the top of my head which aren't, Jet Blue and Flex.

But the original point I was trying to make, before you so cleverly changed the subject, was that its far more than the 11% you mentioned/lamented.

 

[gret]

I think you are saying that you believe between 70% and 80% of all commercial pilots are unionized. If so, I agree. I think it is a stretch to add airline pilots into the equation as they would distort any analysis of the business jet market. The industries are considered vastly different by most.

The percentage of business jet pilots that are unionized would be in the 8% to 12% range. I arrive at this estimate by assuming they're approximately 4K (guessing) frac pilots out of 34K to 50K pilots working in business aviation.

I'm not certain where you came up 11% that you're attributing to me.

It really doesn't matter at the end of the day. The fact is indisputable that the vast majority of pilots applying their professional skills in the business jet industry do not belong to unions.

On to bigger and better topics now we have this cleared up.

 

[pilotyip]

It really doesn't matter at the end of the day. The fact is indisputable that the vast majority of pilots applying their professional skills in the business jet industry do not belong to unions.

Thank you Gret for a voice of moderation in a rabid "If you don't vote for a strike at NJ, you are the scum of the earth" union activist thread"

 

[gret]

Ahhhhh...everyone is OK if you don't take it personally.

I know it has been said before, but it's the extremes (both sides of the issue) that make it interesting.

Have to be careful with percentages, but the vast majority of people just want to be left alone to do their jobs and enjoy their careers and families. The noise just makes it tougher.

 

[CaveoFalco]

...... The fact is indisputable that the vast majority of pilots applying their professional skills in the business jet industry do not belong to unions.....

Unions in this country were started in part to ensure safer working conditions. Then take your anti-union stance to the next step. Compare fatal accident rates of unionized and non-unionized business jet professionals in the US and worldwide.

Thanks, but I will take the safer worker conditions my union ensures without fear of company retribution for calling fatigues or writing up broken airplanes. Once upon a time RTS publicly stated he was happy to have a unionized pilot group for just that reason.

 

[gret]

"Compare fatal accident rates of unionized and non-unionized business jet professionals in the US and worldwide."

I can't because I don't have the stats. Do you have them to review?

Thanks.

 

[pilotyip]

Unions in this country were started in part to ensure safer working conditions. Then take your anti-union stance to the next step. Compare fatal accident rates of unionized and non-unionized business jet professionals in the US and worldwide.

Thanks, but I will take the safer worker conditions my union ensures without fear of company retribution for calling fatigues or writing up broken airplanes. Once upon a time RTS publicly stated he was happy to have a unionized pilot group for just that reason.

Yes unions have been a drivign force for increased safety, and when as company gets big enough they most likely need a union so that the pilot force speaks with one voice.

But that is not the point of this thread. This board is very pro-union. I don't think that I am that rabidly anti-union, but more middle of the road, some places need a union. The rabid union supporters stand on a platform that unions can do no harm. I just happen to not agree with that stance and it is my duty to point out the other side. Unions have the ability to destroy.

NJ is a great job, a job 90% of the pilot in this country looking for a would jump at if given a chance. But for the union activist nothing is ever good enough, an adversarial relationship must be maintained, and a public scolding of those who do not toe the line. From I have seen here calling for a strike vote, and berating those who do not jump on the strike vote bandwagon is comical.

 

[CaveoFalco]

Who put you in charge of the thread direction police? In fact you diverted it from its original direction with this question which is really just a preposterous statement. You blew right through the academic discussion of "changes and adaptations of the business model(s)" to the point of blaming the pilots. or at least a few pilots on FI with an opinion different from yours.

Could it be customers are affair of a possible strike by the pilots in the fractional business and are taking their business elsewhere?

you shifted the tone of the thread from Union - Bad and Management -Good, not me. I just stepped in a played in your debate game.

But for the union activist nothing is ever good enough, an adversarial relationship must be maintained, and a public scolding of those who do not toe the line. From I have seen here calling for a strike vote, and berating those who do not jump on the strike vote bandwagon is comical.

What is the definition of a union activist? Pro-union people on this board? Unless they are a volunteer/leader acting on behalf of their association, then they are pilots with opinions.

A strike vote? No union leader at NJASAP is calling for that yet but so what if they were. It is part of the dance that has played over and over again in the country. Bargaining has not even started so how will it play out is TBD. There was no strike vote to get the 2007 CBA. Do you not understand how difficult it is to get released by the NMB for an actual strike? From what I have seen, some pilots here state they are willing to strike over their contract, nothing more - nothing less.

A union is the group not the leaders. The leaders are only the "business agents" of their membership. Late breaking news, union leaders are hired (elected by the membership) to get more and managers are hired to give less. There will always be conflict. I would hope no one is surprised by that.

Union leaders have two primary roles; contract administration and representation. Contract administration is crucial - the union leadership is in constant defense of the CBA. Management's job is to get more for less by constantly attacking , prodding, reinterpreting their own intent. The battle will always rage on.

Spend some time looking at the representation side of NJASAP or other unions. Little attention gets paid there but much gets done. Read section 17 of the CBA, which begs a question, have you ever read the NJA-NJASAP CBA?