imacdog
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Yes they are professionals. Show me where I said otherwise.
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Fractional flying dropped 10.6 percent in April
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Yes they are professionals. Show me where I said otherwise.
Let me help you as I know numbers are a challenge-
..."While the US market is fragile, signs of recovery are beginning to emerge. Flightglobal's Ascend Online database reveals the USA's inventory of jets and turboprops climbed by more than 300 during the census period to 17,438 turbine business aircraft."...
I know there are variables, but if you assume 2 pilots for each aircraft, you end up with 34,000 pilots. How many work for the fractionals? Not very many in the whole scheme of things.
"Overwhelming" it is not.
I know there are variables, but if you assume 2 pilots for each aircraft, you end up with 34,000 pilots. How many work for the fractionals? Not very many in the whole scheme of things.
"Overwhelming" it is not.
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He specifies Airlines and Fractionals. Those two segments, from the first paragraph you quoted, are overwhelmingly unionized. The second simply affirms what most would agree on-pilots paid to fly are professional.
Pervis...I think you have to go to post #31 to get the gist of the issue. It stated that over 90% of professional pilots are unionized.
No question that most frac and airline pilots belong to a union, but in the business jet industry, less than 12% of the pilots belong to the union. Probably less than 10% as my assumption of 2 pilots per aircraft is conservative. Three pilots is more likely and that would put the business jet pilot population around 50,000.
Given the number of airline pilots, nobody would question that a majority of "commercial" pilots belong to a union, but certainly not 90%. The US airline fleet, including cargo, is only around 7,200 aircraft. The most recent US Bureau of Labor statistics show a total airline pilot census of around 100K.
The inference taken from the observation was that if you don't belong to a union, you're not a professional...disrespecting 99% of mgmt/charter shops, private/corporate flight departments, etc.
The poster admitted his figures were pulled from his 7th planet from the sun. Hopefully in the future, more accurate and precise data will be provided from alternative sources and words will be used in a more responsible manner so that feelings won't be hurt needlessly...
No question that most frac and airline pilots belong to a union, but in the business jet industry, less than 12% of the pilots belong to the union. Probably less than 10% as my assumption of 2 pilots per aircraft is conservative. Three pilots is more likely and that would put the business jet pilot population around 50,000.
Given the number of airline pilots, nobody would question that a majority of "commercial" pilots belong to a union, but certainly not 90%. The US airline fleet, including cargo, is only around 7,200 aircraft. The most recent US Bureau of Labor statistics show a total airline pilot census of around 100K.
The inference taken from the observation was that if you don't belong to a union, you're not a professional...disrespecting 99% of mgmt/charter shops, private/corporate flight departments, etc.
The poster admitted his figures were pulled from his 7th planet from the sun. Hopefully in the future, more accurate and precise data will be provided from alternative sources and words will be used in a more responsible manner so that feelings won't be hurt needlessly...
Point taken gret. A better comparison might be how many companies that employ X number of pilots or more are unionized. A flight department with 3 or 4 pilots would most likely be non-union, but the larger outfits with hundreds or more from frac to cargo to airline are most likely union. All are professional-no argument.
While I don't always agree with the direction a union may want to take me, the real issue is large outfits are not the place for individually negotiated compensation packages. The time alone spent by any company would be far greater than that spent negotiating a CBA that present a fair and equitable package for all, eliminating the majority of favoritism.
It is unfortunate that unions do indeed protect the weakest link, but so do management teams through their own 'good ole boyz club' and nepotism. How else can one explain how people like Ichan, Lorenzo, Boisture, Scheeringa, etc continue to find new frontiers after destroying the lives of so many employees through no fault of the union?
Who takes from the company more? Look at the CEO for AA. While the courts turned down his $20 million dollar bonus package, he'll still milk it somehow. All for "only" losing how much money?
At Netjets, we are enjoying record profits while sales remain flat. If we can do that on operations alone, the sky is the limit. The employees on the pointy end simply want a better share-not enough to break the comany, and certainly not a $20 million bonus. The CEO wants a higher profit margine off of our backs so he can get his multimillion bonus. Who's the real greedy one here? At least we recognize the human element. To him we're simply a liability.
While I don't always agree with the direction a union may want to take me, the real issue is large outfits are not the place for individually negotiated compensation packages. The time alone spent by any company would be far greater than that spent negotiating a CBA that present a fair and equitable package for all, eliminating the majority of favoritism.
It is unfortunate that unions do indeed protect the weakest link, but so do management teams through their own 'good ole boyz club' and nepotism. How else can one explain how people like Ichan, Lorenzo, Boisture, Scheeringa, etc continue to find new frontiers after destroying the lives of so many employees through no fault of the union?
Who takes from the company more? Look at the CEO for AA. While the courts turned down his $20 million dollar bonus package, he'll still milk it somehow. All for "only" losing how much money?
At Netjets, we are enjoying record profits while sales remain flat. If we can do that on operations alone, the sky is the limit. The employees on the pointy end simply want a better share-not enough to break the comany, and certainly not a $20 million bonus. The CEO wants a higher profit margine off of our backs so he can get his multimillion bonus. Who's the real greedy one here? At least we recognize the human element. To him we're simply a liability.
..."How else can one explain how people like Ichan, Lorenzo, Boisture, Scheeringa, etc continue to find new frontiers after destroying the lives of so many employees through no fault of the union?"...
There can be no explanation...the first two are really bad guys, to the core, and their flaws go way beyond dealing with unions. I can't even watch the first one on CNBC.
I knew and did business with Bill when he was at Gulfstream and while I don't know what went on when he was with NetJets...I didn't have a problem with him. Dealt with Scheeringa and he is not a dumb guy, but he really needs to go back to charm school for his leadership and interpersonal skills. He just comes off all wrong and I'm sure that came thru in his dealings with the employees.
There can be no explanation...the first two are really bad guys, to the core, and their flaws go way beyond dealing with unions. I can't even watch the first one on CNBC.
I knew and did business with Bill when he was at Gulfstream and while I don't know what went on when he was with NetJets...I didn't have a problem with him. Dealt with Scheeringa and he is not a dumb guy, but he really needs to go back to charm school for his leadership and interpersonal skills. He just comes off all wrong and I'm sure that came thru in his dealings with the employees.
None of them are dumb. Bill did exactly as he was told at NJ. He negotiated in bad faith and dragged out the negotiations for 5 years giving RTS the opening to ride in on his white horse and shining armor. A well orchestrated move, and our fault for allowing 5 incompetent Teamster boobs lead us to near ruin. Then came Beechcraft and bankrupcy, where he has lost the business jet market and may well lose a lucrative TP light attack/trainer contract. Will his other military contracts keep them afloat? Will we see the demise of the venerable Bonanza, Baron, and King Air types?
Then there's $hitfinger (not my term). So beloved by his fellow employees at US Air he was beaten in the company parking lot (admittedly not cool). So beloved at FLOPS he required security escort to and from his office, and he nearly destroyed the company. Now he is losing market share through questionable dealings in long term markets like MIA and others. Quietly ask Signature employees their opinion. Who will be his next victim?
They and others like them are skilled at padding their pockets on the backs of the working slugs and at the same time, sell the "big bad union" mantra. It's the unsrupulous bosses that are far more dangerous to a company and whole geographical regions than those bad unions. And what's worse is all unions have been succesfully tied together, including public unions. A totally different animal with one perpetrating the biggest conflict of interest in history and the other simply trying to earn a share of the profit directly related to their skills and efforts.
The vast majority of us in unions simply want a share of the pie we bake. Any one of those leaders in the aviation industry could carry on if they were hit by a train and lost three limbs, while pilots face termination every six months. I bet many of us could do their job, but how many could do ours? Who is the true face of the company in this industry? Not the guy on the other end of the phone, that's for sure.
I don't have a problem with the big guy getting top dollar. I have a problem with the caretaker type CEOs though. Guys like Buffett, Gates, etc founded an empire and have a personal interest in their "baby". Those I listed and others like them are caretaker types that don't give a hoot about the company or its employees. Yet they move on to their next parachute leaving thousands in the dust. They are the reason unions exist and bring out the dark side from the union element.
Then there's $hitfinger (not my term). So beloved by his fellow employees at US Air he was beaten in the company parking lot (admittedly not cool). So beloved at FLOPS he required security escort to and from his office, and he nearly destroyed the company. Now he is losing market share through questionable dealings in long term markets like MIA and others. Quietly ask Signature employees their opinion. Who will be his next victim?
They and others like them are skilled at padding their pockets on the backs of the working slugs and at the same time, sell the "big bad union" mantra. It's the unsrupulous bosses that are far more dangerous to a company and whole geographical regions than those bad unions. And what's worse is all unions have been succesfully tied together, including public unions. A totally different animal with one perpetrating the biggest conflict of interest in history and the other simply trying to earn a share of the profit directly related to their skills and efforts.
The vast majority of us in unions simply want a share of the pie we bake. Any one of those leaders in the aviation industry could carry on if they were hit by a train and lost three limbs, while pilots face termination every six months. I bet many of us could do their job, but how many could do ours? Who is the true face of the company in this industry? Not the guy on the other end of the phone, that's for sure.
I don't have a problem with the big guy getting top dollar. I have a problem with the caretaker type CEOs though. Guys like Buffett, Gates, etc founded an empire and have a personal interest in their "baby". Those I listed and others like them are caretaker types that don't give a hoot about the company or its employees. Yet they move on to their next parachute leaving thousands in the dust. They are the reason unions exist and bring out the dark side from the union element.
You have good info on Scheeringa...I know a little about the MIA situation and the competing bidder has quite a few warts also. Typical Miami-Dade nonsense.
Too bad about Hawker...they didn't have anyone with deep pockets who would step to the table and help during the downturn. The Canadian outfit and Goldman bought high and just took their losses and ran. Kinda liked the 850XP for some odd reason. Bill was a gruff old Air Force guy (I believe) and as indicated, don't know much about his time at NJ.
Your perception about pilots being able to do mgmt jobs is interesting...historically a lot of senior mgmt has come from the aviator ranks. The fact is mgmt isn't as easy as it appears, nor is being the captain of an aircraft. The skills sets are completely different and rarely does an individual have both...Gordon Bethune is the only example that comes to mind quickly.
The industry has failed to groom/attract talent with solid financial, marketing, and strategic skills. The money, stability, and opportunities for advancement are much better in other industries and the really good managers gravitate elsewhere. We're left with average retreads that move from one company to another not really improving any of them in the process.
Who are the individuals in business aviation that can take the industry to the next level? I don't see anyone and the company who can find the right person with charisma to lead and deal with clients, vendors, employees, and establish/maintain a brand will be the winner in the end. What I see today is a bunch of boring companies that are simply dead in the water.
Too bad about Hawker...they didn't have anyone with deep pockets who would step to the table and help during the downturn. The Canadian outfit and Goldman bought high and just took their losses and ran. Kinda liked the 850XP for some odd reason. Bill was a gruff old Air Force guy (I believe) and as indicated, don't know much about his time at NJ.
Your perception about pilots being able to do mgmt jobs is interesting...historically a lot of senior mgmt has come from the aviator ranks. The fact is mgmt isn't as easy as it appears, nor is being the captain of an aircraft. The skills sets are completely different and rarely does an individual have both...Gordon Bethune is the only example that comes to mind quickly.
The industry has failed to groom/attract talent with solid financial, marketing, and strategic skills. The money, stability, and opportunities for advancement are much better in other industries and the really good managers gravitate elsewhere. We're left with average retreads that move from one company to another not really improving any of them in the process.
Who are the individuals in business aviation that can take the industry to the next level? I don't see anyone and the company who can find the right person with charisma to lead and deal with clients, vendors, employees, and establish/maintain a brand will be the winner in the end. What I see today is a bunch of boring companies that are simply dead in the water.
Forgot about that guy...he should have been added to the list above.
What was he thinking?...a lousy $3 million was nothing to this guy and he had Warren' ear.
Never will understand people like this...it is like the rich woman getting caught shoplifting st Saks because she thought it was thrilling...
What was he thinking?...a lousy $3 million was nothing to this guy and he had Warren' ear.
Never will understand people like this...it is like the rich woman getting caught shoplifting st Saks because she thought it was thrilling...
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