Found a new forum for General Lee

[ATR-DRIVR]

General,
Trying hard to NOT be emotional. That being said I was just comparing hourly rates and seeing how a 30% cut (hold the line - try anyhow) would float between the two...round numbers show a 5th yr (mine) DL rate would drop from 219/hr to 154/hr. 5ht yr ASA would go from 59 to 42. It seems to me that I could still pay bills at 154/hr than the 42/hr. The '100k' pilots either here or CMR
are VERY small (single number percentages). That is after 20 or so yrs.
You are right, the whipsaw is VERY alive here. And the thing that is making it even worse IS that very thing. Mainline thinks DCI are taking their jobs, DCI thinks that mainline is trying to have them take a huge cut also. DCI nor Mainline has ANY idea what goes on across the ave as far as the hard facts on where management is going with the airline. Rumors are rampant though..
Got to twist off another cold one!!
Missed you on my PFN trips last month!!!

 

[XRMEFLYER]

You will if we go Chap 11. No doubt.

That's the ONLY way it will happen here.

I would start cheering us on

I am cheering for you man. Really.

 

[General Lee]

Xremeflyer,

There seems to be a good chance of that, and I hope it does not happen. Hopefully managment will start to negotiate and we can avert that. It wouldn't happen (according to Fitch) for another year atleast--so we have some time to negotiate. I hope we do.


ATR-Driver,

I don't know where you got those numbers---I don't make anywhere close to $200 an hour---maybe a fifth year Capt---but there are none now--and the Express Capts of old are all gone--used to be a 2 year upgrade to Express 737 Capt.....

I would think the 5 year 737 FOs would lose about $32 an hour with a 30% pay cut---close to $95 an hour. Yes, that is still a good wage--but there are other factors involved too---and I am not a negotiator. I know you make less---and I hope someday you will join us over here and make a great wage too.

I think we will know more when Grinstein gives us his "master plan" in July----rumors are rampant over here too. It would be nice if we could all work this out---have growth for DCI while at the same time hiring furloughs without seniority resignation at DCI---and everyone holding hands...But managment doesn't want that.

I am sorry I didn't see you on any PFN flights late last month---I had to drive--my wife couldn't get on any flights along with me during the week we were down there..... Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

" ..But managment doesn't want that."
THAT is probably the most accurate statement of all, General. I wish it wasn't. If ALL of the flying was done 'in-house' for DL, ie DAL, ASA and CMR, that would bring everyone back would it not? Right down to TKBane. No Chit, SKY, bEagle, ACA or anyone else. I think all 3 of us would be scrambling to cover it even with the 1060 back. Notice I said nothing about a list. Another issue entirely. Just straight DL done by the 3 of us.
Probably too easy.

Hasta...

 

[HA25]

Dude, why so hostile....did you get rejected by a stew on your last layover?

Why so hostile??? When you've been furloughed for close to 3 years... let's see how you feel about low skill workers eating away at your airline.

Hostile?? no, just calling a spade a spade (and if more of us were brave enough, we'd do the same).. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** this unitiy crap with all the unions! ALPA/APA are professional unions representing very skilled labor, AFA is a bunch of over paid and under worked jerks reading their magazines and chatting in the galley while they treat the travelling public like crap on their airline instead of kissing their ass!

 

[MedFlyer]

Medflyer,

Delta's management would like to compare Delta with AA. However, Delta's balance sheet is much stronger than AA's back then. Management seems to be running the airline into the ground so that the balance sheets can be SIMILAR in order to force the pilots to accept AA wages. Why would any pilot support the "bar" going down to those levels for 777 flying?

Clearly, if Delta pilots are forced down to AA levels, then both ASA and Comair should be forced down to MESA levels - it would ONLY BE FAIR... This is a company-wide problem and all employees should contribute to a company-wide solution.

Hey Medflyer, would you be in favor of reducing your income to comparable MESA levels (CRJ wages)? Afterall, your parent company needs the money to compete better... I am curious to know your response and rationale why you shouldn't be paid what your CRJ peers are paid (because that is what you are suggesting Delta pilots should do).

Why should Comair pilots have to take cuts to subsidize DL mainline pilots? Sorry, but I don't think any Comair pilot is that stupid. Many of the non-union folks have spent decades subsidizing you and that's their choice. However, there's no reason for Comair to do so.

According to all published reports, Comair is a profitable entity. So why should a profitable entity have to take cuts to subsidize money-losing mainline? Of course, I'm not sure if Comair is really profitable or if its all just an accounting game. But you would think that if DL wanted concessions from Comair, they would come up with a way to make Comair look like a money-loser? Why hasn't DL made us out to be money losers?

I realize that DL took on a lot of debt to buy all these RJ's and now that debt is burying DL alive. However, the mainline pilots chose to have it this way. You wanted industry leading pay and you got it. In return, you gave DL management an almost blank check to go on an RJ buying orgy. Not a real bright move on your part, but that's what you negotiated. You only wanted the highest pay and never thought about the consequences.

Will Comair eventually be forced into concessions? Maybe. If the pay is cut too much, I'm prepared to leave. I love flying, but I won't ruin myself financially to do it. I have other interests and other talents. There are plenty of other jobs out there that pay as much as Comair. I'm young enough to easily leave this behind and live a good life, so making idle threats about reducing Comair down to Mesa isn't going to scare me...try someone else.

Ideally, I hope that DL and DALPA can come to an agreement that allows the company to thrive and grow. Believe it or not, DL does have the potential to be one few surviving network carriers (3 or 4 will survive this industry overhaul). DL management and DALPA had both better pull their collective heads out of their collective *sses and get with the program. So far, I'm not real impressed with either side. However, the onus will fall on DALPA because the DL pilots have far more to lose than anyone else in this game. As we've already seen, most people in DL management can easily leave and find jobs and careers elsewhere...no matter how inept they may be. The same isn't true for the DL pilots.

 

[General Lee]

Medflyer,

I know one job you can leave for---writing propoganda. You'd probably make a mint.

You better believe that Comair is subsidised by Delta---even our CFO acknowledged in a CVG meeting that mainline pays for most of your services---and you are left with mainly profits. And, you are correct---a lot of our current debt load is from RJ purchases---which you are benefiting from. We have downsized nearly 3000 pilots since 9-11, and have gotten very few new aircraft. You have grown and hired many many Sanford CFI's---and we are still losing money. Could it be that RJs are killing us? Maybe. The lower fares combined with less seats on RJs don't equal profit. RJs limit the number of people you can fly to a hub, and also how many you can then feed onto waiting 764's to FLA. Fred Reid had grandiose plans for RJs----and those plans turned out wrong! They will eventually come to you for money---and you will hold out too---except we are actually willing to do mid-contract talks early--something we did not have to do. We gave a low offer initially----but if that offer was it--why would we STILL be willing to negotiate? That means we could go for more cuts.....Get it? Managment is stalling---and we can only offer to negotiate. I too hope they can figure something out.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

(PS--my next job could involve "Chip-n-dale's"----driving them in a van anyways...... )

 

[lowlycfi]

Hostile?? no, just calling a spade a spade (and if more of us were brave enough, we'd do the same).. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** this unitiy crap with all the unions! ALPA/APA are professional unions representing very skilled labor, AFA is a bunch of over paid and under worked jerks reading their magazines and chatting in the galley while they treat the travelling public like crap on their airline instead of kissing their ass!

Are you sure you're a pilot and not in management? Do you really think it is the mainline employee who is ultimately responsible for a company's demise? That dead weight didn't hire itself. It was hired by MANAGEMENT, i.e. leadership of the company. Quit blaming the company's problems on the little guys. Bad leadership is what kills airlines.

I don't know if you've noticed, but airlines are considered SERVICE INDUSTRY. We are in the business of selling customer service not just a ride from point A to B. If that was the case there would be only one airline. Customer service is a skill. Probably the most valuable skill at an airline. I don't think it's an accident that the most successful airlines out there have the highest customer satisfaction ratings.

Res. agents, CSAs, skycaps, ramp agents, flight attendants and yes even pilots have direct or indirect contact with customers and their skill level at providing the best service available will ensure the airline stays successful. Keeping those employees happy and making sure the right ones get in those jobs in the first place is the job of the company leadership. Don't think that just because you have an ATP and a first class medical that you are the only one at your airline with "skills".

Brother, I feel your pain. I too have been furloughed before and it sucks. Personally, I think we in the industry are all underpaid and I wish everyone the best.

And by the way, I've seen some the most amazing customer service delivered by "senior mama's" that were old enough to be my mama!

 

[HA25]

Are you sure you're a pilot and not in management? Do you really think it is the mainline employee who is ultimately responsible for a company's demise? That dead weight didn't hire itself. It was hired by MANAGEMENT, i.e. leadership of the company. Quit blaming the company's problems on the little guys. Bad leadership is what kills airlines.

I don't know if you've noticed, but airlines are considered SERVICE INDUSTRY. We are in the business of selling customer service not just a ride from point A to B.

A) If you knew me, that first comment would make your toung sting! All my pears think I'm a fanatical anti-management man. A company man, I am not! I just don't give a rats ass about F/A's and CSR's that wana make a career out of a minimum wage job. Mechanics and Professionals like Pilots, Dispatchers, Technical engineers, etc... those people should be looking at careers. with sine 40,000 F/A's at some large airlines, their over inflated wages, combined with their poor work ethic is a drag on a very capital intensive the industry that needs to keeps costs down.

B) You said it your self, we are a SERVICE industry... I don't know how much flying you do on the airlines (I do a whole lot in my current job), but the F/A's today are hardly disshing out good service. Reference my conversation with the German LTU F/A that I just had where she told me that when she flew on DAL recently, she was shocked and amazed at the LACK OF SERVICE on US airlines and the attitude of the F/A towards both the Pax and the pilots (down right disrespect).

See you later man, I ain't got time to keep making the same point.

 

[HA25]

BTW... you're a CFI... I don't fault that. I started that way too. But when I was a CFI, I didn't pretend to know the in's and outs of the industry. I worked at the airlines for 4 years before any of it began to make any sense.

Wait and see if you feel the same after a few years on the line.

 

[FDJ2]

Different companies with very different levels of financial performance. One is making money and subsidizing the losses of the other already, not the other way around.

DAL subsidizes ASA and CMR by picking up many of the costs associated with getting passengers from point A to point B. While ASA/CMR might be profitable, they only pay for their direct operating costs and many of the other costs such as non fleet capex, selling, distribution, depreciation charges are paid by DAL. Since neither ASA or CMR pay for these charges it can hardly be stated that ASA/CMR are profitable operations for DAL. What percent of $500M in non fleet capex or $1.2B in depreciation did ASA/CMR pay? All those costs are shouldered by the mainline.

 

[FDJ2]

According to all published reports, Comair is a profitable entity.

It's easy to be profitable when there is a mainline that not only gives you your passengers, but also pays many of your bills. Comair is profitable because DAL gives you the money to be profitable while picking up many of your expenses. BTW, have you noticed that the most profitable airlines either wouldn't touch an RJ (SWA & JBLU) or are dumping RJ feed because the economics make no sense (Airtran).

 

[lowlycfi]

BTW... you're a CFI... I don't fault that. I started that way too. But when I was a CFI, I didn't pretend to know the in's and outs of the industry. I worked at the airlines for 4 years before any of it began to make any sense.

Wait and see if you feel the same after a few years on the line.

Uh, look at my profile bonehead. In addition to being a CFI I'm also a Flight Attendant. I 've been in the industry for almost 14 years now (as a CSA, a ramp agent, and a flight attendant of which I have been for over 10 years), so I think I know the ins and outs of this industry as well.

I fly on the airlines OFTEN as a crewmember and a passenger. I will agree there is some bad service out there - usually by employees who are in the job for the short term as a means to an end. I also see quite a bit of outstanding service from employees who have made a career of providing CUSTOMER SERVICE to the flying public.

Now, I have to run....I'm off to drag my airline down the road to bankruptcy.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

DAL subsidizes ASA and CMR

Wrong!

there is a mainline that not only gives you your passengers

That's rich!

BTW, have you noticed that the most profitable airlines either wouldn't touch an RJ (SWA & JBLU) or are dumping RJ feed because the economics make no sense (Airtran).

Actually if you had been keeping up with current events, you would have noticed that JBLU has ordered quite a few of them.

All of that is neither here nor there really. Bottom line: We are separate companies with separate situations and we will NOT take pay cuts without them being forced upon us by a bankruptcy judge.

 

[Sniper@YourFeet]

Actually if you had been keeping up with current events, you would have noticed that JBLU has ordered quite a few of them..

EMB-190's are lager than DC-9's that Northwest flies, and they should be paid like something larger than a DC-9 too.

A spade is a spade, an EMB-190 is a mainline jet, and it should not be flown for cheap RJ wages (yes, even Commair wages fall in this category). If pilots are calling them RJ's, then manamgent will have no problem putting RJ pilots with their poor payscales on them too.

As for who subsidizes Commair and ASA, you claim it's not mainline. Well, it's not ASA or Commair, so who does it . . . the toothfairy?

Delta mainline will take concessions (as perhaps they should, given their lack of pairity with their competiton. But don't beleive for a second that everyone else shouldn't take cuts too.

It's always 'we're DCI', its our flying (contract carriers are bas+ard children of Delta right?), we are Delta employees too'. Ok, then, as a Delta employee, you need to know your company is losing $ and needs to cut costs. You, as a Delta employee, should help out.

You gotta' take the good with the bad - sucks, huh?

 

[XRMEFLYER]

EMB-190's are lager than DC-9's that Northwest flies,

They ordered some 170's too. Those and the CRJ-700 have 7 seats less than the original DC-9-100 what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

If pilots are calling them RJ's, then manamgent will have no problem putting RJ pilots with their poor payscales on them too.

Actually their manufacturer are calling them that. Question of semantics anyway?

As for who subsidizes Commair and ASA, you claim it's not mainline. Well, it's not ASA or Commair, so who does it . . . the toothfairy?

Well there you have it.

But don't beleive for a second that everyone else shouldn't take cuts too.

Actually I do believe that and am far from being alone.

You, as a Delta employee, should help out.

No thanks, not interested. Already doing that by doing what I do for what I do it for!

You gotta' take the good with the bad - sucks, huh?

Yeah it does

 

[General Lee]

Xreme's one liners are cool. He also thinks Comair earns every penny and profits--without Delta's help. He is a team player--no doubt---just like a military man!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Extreme, your comebacks are great, too bad they lack substance or basis in reality.

CMR only pays for its direct operating costs, DAL pays all the rest of the costs.

CMR does not fly any of its own code, DAL provides all the code for CMR to fly.

Neither SWA, JBLU or in the near future Airtran want anything to do with a CRJ. Could there be a correlation between the poor economics of the CRJ and the profitability of the companies who use them and those who avoid them like the plague?

 

[On Your Six]

Accepting Peer-Level Wages....

Why shouldn't Comair and ASA pilots be paid what their peers at MESA are paid? Seems like everyone is attempting to make apples-to-apples comparisons here...

So, let's have Comair and ASA pilots agree to MESA levels while the mainline guys accept 30%+ cuts (to AA or UAL levels for comparable equipment)... That's only fair, right?

Why not MESA levels? You're leaving a lot of money on the table by not flying for MESA levels... Shouldn't Comair and MESA CRJ Captains be paid the same for the same equipment and same number of hours, etc.?

 

[MedFlyer]

They ordered some 170's too. Those and the CRJ-700 have 7 seats less than the original DC-9-100 what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Actually their manufacturer are calling them that. Question of semantics anyway?

Well there you have it.

Actually I do believe that and am far from being alone.

No thanks, not interested. Already doing that by doing what I do for what I do it for!

Yeah it does?

JetBlue only ordered 190's and no one calls the 190 a regional jet. Go to the Embraer website, they do not call them regional jets.

I agree with you that at this time there is no reason for Comair to give concessions. As long as they keep telling Comair how profitable we are, I don't see concessions coming. If they wanted concessions, they'd find a way to put Comair in the red.