FO's in supervisory positions

[B6Driver]

"When you call a ACP and say hey how did you handle this problem when you were captain........ What do you hear on the other end of the line. "

All our F/O's were captains at other airlines or Officers in the military
You hear what you need to hear and nothing less.

 

[FN FAL]

Industry jargon generally understood by the folks I addressed my question to.

A concern could be what I like to call "x" factor, when plan "c" comes into effect...

Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know which one you're going to get.

In the
United States Court of Appeals
For the Seventh Circuit

No. 01-1159

MICHAEL L. PIASKOWSKI,

Petitioner-Appellee,

v.

JOHN BETT,

Respondent-Appellant.

Appeal from the United States District Court
for the Eastern District of Wisconsin.
No. 99-C-1428--Myron L. Gordon, Judge.

Argued May 18, 2001--Decided July 10, 2001



Before EASTERBROOK, MANION, and EVANS,
Circuit Judges.

EVANS, Circuit Judge. On November 10,
1992, the Green Bay, Wisconsin, police
department received an anonymous tip that
Keith Kutska, an employee of the James
River Paper Mill, was going to steal a
piece of electrical cord at the end of
his shift. The police passed the tip on
to the company. When Kutska left the mill
that evening, a security guard stopped
him and asked to search his duffel bag.
Kutska refused to permit the search and
left the premises, but he received a 5-
day, unpaid suspension from work for not
letting the guard peek into his bag.

Kutska was not happy about this, a fact
that quickly became known around the
mill. Later, Kutska learned that the
police were tipped off by the anonymous
call, and he set out to determine who
blew the whistle on him. Fearing
repercussions, the mill worker who
provided the tip, Thomas Monfils, begged
the police not to give Kutska access to
the tape of his call. But, in a
bureaucratic screw-up, Kutska obtained a
copy of the tape with little difficulty.
How Kutska obtained the tape is detailed
in Monfils v. Taylor, 165 F.3d 511 (7th
Cir. 1998), cert. denied, 528 U.S. 810
(1999). We won't repeat here what we said
there. Suffice to say that once Kutska
got his hands on the tape, he immediately
identified Monfils as the tipster.

Kutska brought the tape to the mill (on
November 21) a few days after he returned
from his suspension and played it a
number of times for various coworkers,
including once for Monfils, who admitted
making the call. Michael Piaskowski and
Randy LePak, who were with Monfils and
Kutska for this tape playing, reacted
strongly. On his way out the door after
hearing the tape, Piaskowski said, "Geez,
Tom, I just Frickin' don't believe you'd
do that." LePak was more expressive,
telling Monfils, "You can thank your
Frickin' lucky stars you didn't do it to
me, or I'd have killed you."

News of these events spread quickly
throughout the mill. And many workers,
around 20 it would appear, eventually
heard the tape early that morning.
Shortly after 7 a.m., Kutska took the
tape to the control room for machine 9
(a/k/a "coop 9") and played it for a
group that included the five men with
whom he would later be convicted of
Monfils' murder: Piaskowski, Michael
Hirn, Reynold Moore, Dale Basten, and
Michael Johnson. Although Kutska had
stolen the electrical cord, he implied
that Monfils' accusation was false, and
he told Moore and Hirn to "give Monfils
some shoot" for snitching on a fellow
union brother.

Meanwhile, Monfils left his post at coop
7 to perform a periodic task known as
"turnover" scheduled for 7:34. A minute
later, an altercation involving Monfils
and a number of workers occurred near a
water fountain (or "bubbler" in Wisconsin
parlance) located between coops 7 and 9.
Monfils was attacked and seriously
injured. He was left, unconscious but
alive, lying in a ball on the mill floor.
Approximately 5 minutes later, mill
worker David Wiener observed Basten and
Johnson in an area which connects the
paper machines with the vat that supplies
pulp to the machines. Johnson was walking
backwards, 5 or 6 feet in front of
Basten, and they appeared to be carrying
something--and on the basis of this
evidence, that something was Monfils--
toward a pulp vat.

At 7:45 Kutska and Moore entered coop 7,
followed within minutes by Piaskowski.
Kutska told Piaskowski to alert a
supervisor that Monfils was missing,
purportedly to get Monfils in trouble for
leaving his work station. Piaskowski did
so and added that there was "some shoot
going down." A search was begun, and the
next day Monfils' body was discovered at
the bottom of the vat. A heavy weight,
usually kept near machine 7, was tied
around his neck. The coroner determined
that Monfils died by asphyxiation due to
the aspiration of paper pulp.

 

[regionaltard]

I guess the sarcasm went right over your head.

Ahh, giving or receiving....I get it now. I was wondering if your handle was your given name or what you've had in your mouth lately; thanks for clearing that one up for me.........

 

[ivauir]

It seems to me (an FO) that anyone in a truly supervisory postion, ought to be a fairly senior Captain at that particular airline. If you are going to counsel or even discipline folks for their conduct as a Captain at a particular airline, they need credible experience at that airline.
Someone mentioned this working in the military and I must disagree. I've saw many times where a non pilot or a pilot with experience from an outside operation was put in charge of the day to day operations of a flying squadron and the results were never pretty. I worked in some "unique" missions and this was often a nessecary evil, but I've never seen it work smoothly. It is a tough job to try to lead without credibility. I have seen some outstanding leaders let their proficiency slide and so flew in the right seat, but their credibility was never in doubt. In fact their respect for the effect of currency enhanced their stature amongst the "line dogs".

Just my opinion and their are a lot of situations that might be good cause to put an FO in charge. It sure isn't a job I would want.

 

[whymeworry?]

I see no problem with is so long as the pilot has the experience to back up his management prowess.

Doesn't JB hire higly qualified candidates? If so, I'm sure many have prior CP expereince. If they're a good AP or CP who cares whether they ahve 3 stripes or 4? I'm sure most were Captains before joining anyway. Having being a CP in the past myself, I can tell you it's a rather sh!tty job (always on someones bad side, mgmt or the pilots... damed if you do/ dont.). So more power to the guy who steps up to the plate to deal with pilot problems, be tied to his/ her pager and cell phone 24/7, work 5 days a week and have to play politics in within the mgmt circles.

I prefer to enjoy my days off.

 

[A350]

The same arguement could be made that we don't allow F/O's to upgrade to Captain because they don't "have any experience being a Captain".

The Chief pilots that do the grunt work at JB aren't there to dish out punishment. I would guess that if there was pain to dish out, one of the main Chiefs would do it.

A350

 

[pilotyip]

best way management pilots

Perfect airline of the future everyone is a management pilot, one week in the office, one week off and two weeks flying. Then everyone would know everything about everything. Like a squadron

 

[HawkerF/O]

The only thing getting hurt here is a bunch of egos. This garbage about needing to be fairly senior is for the birds and not a well thought out statement. What about the F/O that elects not to upgrade until later due to schedule and some other guy upgrades to Captain at the 1st chance he gets. Now the F/O is swinging gear for a Captain junior to him. Should the F/O assume command becasue he is senior? Of course not, that's a incredibly ignorant statement. Like it has been said previously, it's not skill that gets you to the left seat, it's date of hire.

 

[michael707767]

The only thing seperating some FO's from Captains is not skill or experience but a senority number!

Ain't it the truth. The problem is some guys get that fourth stripe and think they know everything.

 

[SoundBarViolatr]

FO in a ACP position

I found the thread and thought I'd put my 2 cents in. I am an F/O in such a position at a leading Charter Company. I was offered the position after I helped restructure the Ops Department, employing what I found worked in the military in the past 14 years of faithful service to our country. Wanting to do more for the team, I agreed. The pay was standard F/O for the type aircraft I was assigned to yet the schedule and responsibilities far exceeded the norm. It was primarily a Managerial Administrative position that entailed a LOT of inter and outer department coordination and decision making. If counseling was necessary, it was accomplished in a professional manner and behind closed doors. I encountered minimal problems as I treated each Crew Member with courtesy and respect, regardless of the amount of bars on their shoulders. Pilots who once were Officers in the military were now have to reporting to a Sergeant (me), yet they never had a problem with it. As professionals, we all know that what happens outside of that Crew entry door stays outside. And the same applies in my office; what happens in there, stays in there. As part of Management, I have a job to do and I do it. As part of a Crew, we both have jobs to do, and you can count on me to back you up. In either theatre, the roles and missions are clearly defined; so quit cryin' or being so shoulder heavy...There's a job that needs to be done, so just do it.