Fortune magazine article on Sokal

[mzaharis]

Fortune magazine article on Sokol

Offered without opinion or comment - thought you might find it interesting.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/29/news/companies/buffets_mr_fixit_full.fortune/index.htm#sokol_full

 

[imacdog]

You must have spent a lot of time researching based on your spelling.

 

[mzaharis]

You must have spent a lot of time researching based on your spelling.

Just corrected it - thanks.

As for research, I think I saw it linked off of CNN.com, and thought some of you might want to read it.

 

[imacdog]

Not to worry, it's a common mistake for those on the outside.

 

[mzaharis]

Now I remember where I got "Sokal" on the brain - there was a physicist named Alan Sokal who played a hoax on a bunch of post-modernist "academics", submitting an intentionally nonsensical paper to a post-moderenist journal, which they still published. Made quite a splash in academia in the mid '90s, and made the post-modernist crowd look pretty foolish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

 

[gunfyter]

Now I remember where I got "Sokal" on the brain - there was a physicist named Alan Sokal who played a hoax on a bunch of post-modernist "academics", submitting an intentionally nonsensical paper to a post-moderenist journal, which they still published. Made quite a splash in academia in the mid '90s, and made the post-modernist crowd look pretty foolish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

More recently, one of the 911 Truther "Scientific studies" promoting the idea that the World Trade Center collapse was a Demolition was published in a similar "Peer-reviewed" science magazine. Nut jobs running around claiming to have peer reviewed status for their nonsense...

The magazine accepted also published a nonsensical computer generated paper submitted by a Physics graduate student from NY. This author was also invited to join the peer review board.

 

[gunfyter]

The judgment that matters here, of course, is Buffett's, and he is pleased and satisfied. "Dave is now making very good money, and not from selling planes," Buffett says. "It looks like NetJets will earn $200 million pretax this year. It's as remarkable a managerial achievement as I have ever seen. When aviation picks up, it could be a company that could earn $500 million a year."
​

I hate to say I told you so ... 19 ....

Let the Recalls begin ....

 

[CRJFlyer]

Why recall when you can squeeze even more $$ out of the company and it's employees.

 

[Jack Campbell]

DS is on record saying companies shouldn't hire until the current employees are working at 125%. Is Netjets there now? Are Netjets pilots doing everything they can to hasten recalls, within the bounds of the CBA? How many are taking overtime? And what about the large percentage on the 18 day schedule? If everyone were to depart their lucrative 18 day schedule, many of us could return to work instead of clamoring for the next unemployment check. I'm just throwing those questions out for discussion, but we all know there is more that could be done. YMMV.

 

[Grizz]

Jack,

Overtime up to 14 hours is not voluntary. The only way to get out of it is to inform the company that you are too fatigued to fly. Fatigue calls seem to be increasing based on the tempo we've been holding. I would expect that to increase further as we head toward busy season.

As to the 18 Day and folks not bidding it, I don't know how that's shaping up. Just for me - I know I'm not bidding it or taking any voluntary extended days while we have pilots on furlough.

 

[CRJFlyer]

Wish and hope more think like you Grizz......I don't advocate anyone take an unneccesary pay cut. (I was always on the 18 for $$ reasons).....But if someone doesn't work it for our sake then that is great.

Only time will tell how many guys push it too hard for the sake of the mother country. Personally I would be setting a very strict limit on the # of 14 hr duty days I'd be willing to do. Even when things were rosy I had a limit. Usually one 14 hr. day-if followed by min resty or very short rest-then the next day would be a guaranteed short day for me...If I had adequate rest I may do another long day, but then that was it until I felt I had an appropriate night to rest or to do whatever. (a little me time).

Extended days are a no brainer. I think PW can tell you our feelings on them. (no matter how he thinks he is justifying them). Any pilot who volunteers for an extended day is no friend or "family" member of mine and will be treated appropriately...... like the dirt bag they are.

 

[Jack Campbell]

Grizz - The extended days are what I was referring to with my OT comments. Its good that pilots are still calling in fatigued when they are too tired to be safe. That is a great resource that should never be abused, but used when truly needed.
Its great that you are not bidding for the 18 day schedule. Thank you! There seem to be a lot that agree with you on the voluntary extended days, but there are a lot of pilots on the 18 day schedule. I won't quote stats on this board, but its very easy to find out if you have access to the information.

 

[rajflyboy]

DS is doing great!

Just Outstanding!

 

[RP170]

What's the point of the company keeping you on duty after you say you are fatigued, raj? You obviously aren't going to be going anywhere.

I guess you edited your post.

 

[RP170]

As to the 18 Day and folks not bidding it, I don't know how that's shaping up. Just for me - I know I'm not bidding it or taking any voluntary extended days while we have pilots on furlough.

You're the man Grizz. Thank you.

 

[rajflyboy]

What's the point of the company keeping you on duty after you say you are fatigued, raj? You obviously aren't going to be going anywhere.

I guess you edited your post.

Thats new to me as of tonight. They kept us on duty for an additional 5 hours. We called our representation and they said it was legal.

In fact your 14 hours off starts as of the time you called cmh land. So if you called in fatigued at 5pm eastern and they keep you on duty until 10 pm they can actually still show you at 7am.

????? I don't get it but this is what I expect now a days.

 

[RP170]

They want to play that game, then I would fatigue the next morning when I woke up as well.

 

[rajflyboy]

They want to play that game, then I would fatigue the next morning when I woke up as well.

The problem is that most of us are paying around 2G a year for representation and nothing is being done to fix this stuff.

This equates to over 4 million dollars a year. Where is all this money going considering the lack of service we are receiving lately?

 

[gunfyter]

Where were you on duty? The hotel?

 

[Jack Mehoff]

Extended days are a no brainer. I think PW can tell you our feelings on them. (no matter how he thinks he is justifying them). Any pilot who volunteers for an extended day is no friend or "family" member of mine and will be treated appropriately...... like the dirt bag they are.

I think the character of Bill Lumburg in Office Space was based on PW. The producers said "So Who's the biggest D-Bag alive? Cue "Pad your wallet and help the company" PW!

 

[Pervis]

I have to wave the BS flag. When you call in fatigued, you are shut down, sent to the hotel, and granted 14 hours rest-minimum-per the CBA. Who was this "representative"? The correct term is SOD, and you would know that if you truely worked at NJA. Or are you just trying to spread more "stuff" about the company and its employees?

 

[gunfyter]

You can be kept on duty to do non safety related things. Like being a passenger on a Limo or airline. If you can't do even these things ... then you need to DNIF.

But fatigue means you don't operate aircraft or vehicles.

 

[Pervis]

Section 28 clearly states what company cannot schedule you for after a fatigue call. It says no flight duty or rental car, implying other types of travel, but limited to specific circumstances. 28.5(F)(1)(b) talks about reducing the 14 hr rest period when fatigue is called the second to last assigned duty day in order to avaid "intentional" after midnights. Nowhere does that section address "other" duty, such as Jepps revisions or other paperwork, etc. Since it is not specifically addressed, one could argue anything goes. However, I believe if the CBA does not specifically allow them to, they can't just make stuff up. RAJ says they were kept on duty for another 5 hours, but doesn't specify what type of duty. If there was questionable assigment involved, I would challenge that via the grievance process, whatever the "rep" said.

 

[CRJFlyer]

just or the record I never ever referred to anyone as the SOD.... just sayin that alone would not discredit his employment at NJA..


As far as being kept on for an additional 5 hrs.........never saw it happen. Whenever I called in fatigued it was an immediate or nearly immediate shutdown. There was the usual delay to set up hotel or transportation to the hotel. But never for fulfilling a duty assignment.

 

[Helmsalee]

We all know that Raj has a tendency to make up things or modify them to suit his agenda. He is sitting on the sidelines waiting for the rest of us to clear up loose details before he comes back with an explanation. Just like the fatigue report thread.
Helm

 

[jppt2000]

The problem is that most of us are paying around 2G a year for representation and nothing is being done to fix this stuff.

This equates to over 4 million dollars a year. Where is all this money going considering the lack of service we are receiving lately?

What did the Union representative you contacted say?

 

[rajflyboy]

I have to wave the BS flag. When you call in fatigued, you are shut down, sent to the hotel, and granted 14 hours rest-minimum-per the CBA. Who was this "representative"? The correct term is SOD, and you would know that if you truely worked at NJA. Or are you just trying to spread more "stuff" about the company and its employees?

Well

You are clueless because this did happen and Yes the SOD all 4 million dollars worth said that yes the company can do this.

 

[rajflyboy]

You can be kept on duty to do non safety related things. Like being a passenger on a Limo or airline. If you can't do even these things ... then you need to DNIF.

But fatigue means you don't operate aircraft or vehicles.

pretty much exactly what the SOD said

 

[rajflyboy]

just or the record I never ever referred to anyone as the SOD.... just sayin that alone would not discredit his employment at NJA..


As far as being kept on for an additional 5 hrs.........never saw it happen. Whenever I called in fatigued it was an immediate or nearly immediate shutdown. There was the usual delay to set up hotel or transportation to the hotel. But never for fulfilling a duty assignment.

Same here until last night. It was day 6 for both of us. We were in a busy location for Netjets.

I'm not necessarily pissed about it. I'm just telling you all what happened so that you can be prepared in case they do it to you. Also dissapointed that the representation allows this to go on.

This all after a dissapointing week of CMH not answering phone calls or general messages in a timely matter. Troubles with crew food and then given slack about wanting to go get food (several different times). We were told once to arrange our own crew food because the caterer at location was on vacation. ???? We had a bogus MX line suddenly put on our aircraft just as the pax were sitting down on the airplane and then it took 3 phone calls to get this cleared up. Typical schedule changes over and over and over.

2 different nights when late ops was supposedly arranged with an fbo and was not.

ETD messages over and over again. They still don't understand that On Time means nothing in this business. We move the plane when the passengers show up. Thats why they pay the big bucks for our service.

All added up to a wonderful week.

 

[DC-4]

Dude that is a simple answer, fatigue in the morning because of a lack of rest not 14 hours. Then, they send you to the FBO and put you on duty and then fatigue again. Its a terrible game but if they want to play, well an ac will never move. Prior to furlough I once called in fatigued twice in a row till they got the message that I am to rest when I fatigue not f around. But it is a sick and twisted game with NJA schedulers (go Andy, not the girl LOL). Anyone at NJA understands that humor.