Former Tranny bidding SW Captain prior to 2015?

[texman]

So on the current bid, who comes over first the most JR or SR. FO's and or Capts.

 

[humveedriver]

So on the current bid, who comes over first the most JR or SR. FO's and or Capts.

We have two airplanes and three domiciles that SWA is choosing from. They are throwing seniority out the window. Nothing against the SWA pilots, we know what kind of BS you guys get fed now.

 

[Dan Roman]

We have two airplanes and three domiciles that SWA is choosing from. They are throwing seniority out the window. Nothing against the SWA pilots, we know what kind of BS you guys get fed now.

Hey, if you have that warrior spirit it's OK!

 

[scoreboardII]

Again, a quote to a media outlet saying they will be gone sooner than later, with NO SPECIFIC DATES (that's zero, zilch, nada, NONE) and then EXPRESS PROMISES, both to the Negotiating Committee AND at MULTIPLE road shows to our pilots, by Southwest Executives, that the 717 would remain until the leases terminated, thus upholding all the terms of the SIA, are two completely, separate things.

One is a general, non-specific statement to the media.

The other is a promise to a pilot group and the basis of a Legal Agreement.

You guys are taking the ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS position that we would KNOWINGLY negotiate NO protections for ANY of our Captains then, along with Southwest Management representatives, go out on the road and sell them to the pilot group, along with aircraft retirement charts and graphs, how many Captains are protected, how many are not (not to even mention the "To Be Announced" 717 2nd base that has NO loophole to be canceled in the SIA).

It's a ludicrous position to say "You knew the 717's were going away, but you negotiated dozens of pages about it in an Agreement and negotiated no other protections". It's asinine. Really, listen to yourselves... it sounds ridiculous enough being on the inside, much less to anyone else that's not a Southwest employee. I can't believe I'm still having to explain this to people...

I know it's hard to admit that this might actually be something that was handled poorly but really, if you're an AirTran Captain who went to a road show, had a Southwest management representative tell you that you were keeping your Captain seat, the Agreement says you will keep your Captain seat, and that the planes are staying until 2017, then suddenly they're not and you lose between $250,000 and $500,000 (that's half a Million Dollars, by the way), before you can re-upgrade... you think that's not offensive?

There's 3 inflexible things in the Seniority Integration Agreement that are based on the 717 that CANNOT BE NULLIFIED. It's going to cost Southwest almost $50 Million dollars if we do not give them relief from those provisions. Now tell me, if Southwest thought the airplane was going away early, do you think those provisions would be so inflexible?

And yes, Southwest has already asked for relief on those items. We said No, until we get a major bone thrown towards our Captains or pay parity for the entire group. If it doesn't happen, no relief will be given. That's why negotiations continue every few weeks... they need relief and we ain't giving it until they figure out how to make this right. Can't change the seniority list, so it will have to be money.

Not angry; it's just business and what happens when you change an agreement that adversely affects one party.

Lear, welcome to SWA.

What you need to realize is this deal is costing every FO about $60,000 each and every year they don't upgrade with the jets SWA just bought.

It' a two way street, we are both pissed, I'm over it, lets move on to the next alligator closest to the canoe.

I'll up our ludicrous point and call it insane to think you have any position of merit to fallback on as evidence supporting a claim that SWA, in writting, guaranteed not to sell the 717 prior to 2017. None. But do keep poking the hand that feeds you, hold out to the end on your points because you'll most likely find yourelf on the street.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, welcome to SWA.

What you need to realize is this deal is costing every FO about $60,000 each and every year they don't upgrade with the jets SWA just bought.

It' a two way street, we are both pissed, I'm over it, lets move on to the next alligator closest to the canoe.

I'll up our ludicrous point and call it insane to think you have any position of merit to fallback on as evidence supporting a claim that SWA, in writting, guaranteed not to sell the 717 prior to 2017. None. But do keep poking the hand that feeds you, hold out to the end on your points because you'll most likely find yourelf on the street.

I certainly do understand the angst from your mid-level and junior F/O's. The senior F/O's are upgrading at the expense of our Captains. There are only 300 or so of our F/O's who will delay anything for anyone... It's our Captains re-upgrading that delays them and yes it will cost them money too. I never said it wouldn't.

I simply said that we made a deal with Southwest. They changed the deal. They therefore need to address the negative impact of those changes.

And if respectfully and politely negotiating for that is "poking the hand that feeds you" is something that gets one fired here, then I suppose the entire MEC, Contract Compliance Committee, Negotiating Committee, and MEC Chair, Vice Chair, and Sec Treas are in for it huh? That's 23 people so far. I somewhat dobt it however. We are still out here, doing our jobs, telling the rest of the pilots to keep doing their jobs as well, and working within the system as it was designed. Don't think that justifies anything but hey, I've been wrong before.

 

[scoreboardII]

the corporate memory here at good old SWA is long and sometimes vindictive, best of luck, I mean that, take care.

 

[Dan Roman]

the corporate memory here at good old SWA is long and sometimes vindictive, best of luck, I mean that, take care.

Looks to me like Lear is taking a very pragmatic and correct stand, the situation you describe could find SWA's "vindictive" management style landing them in legal hot water. They may think they are little warriors, but that doesn't mean they are free to do anything they want.

 

[scoreboardII]

says the man with no dog in the fight.

Listen, SWA will do what SWA will do, thinking you have an iron clad contract to stop them, with their building full of lawyers who knew the answer a year before any of this came to light, has never stopped SWA from getting what they want. Look at the Wright ammendment.

Can't fly out of state out of LUV? Watch as we fly to LBB first. Can't sell 717's early? Watch this... And it may not be what you think... It sure won't be a cash reward to pilots, I assure you. Cash to one side means cash to both, thats not happening.

 

[Dan Roman]

says the man with no dog in the fight.

Listen, SWA will do what SWA will do, thinking you have an iron clad contract to stop them, with their building full of lawyers who knew the answer a year before any of this came to light, has never stopped SWA from getting what they want. Look at the Wright ammendment.

Can't fly out of state out of LUV? Watch as we fly to LBB first. Can't sell 717's early? Watch this... And it may not be what you think... It sure won't be a cash reward to pilots, I assure you. Cash to one side means cash to both, thats not happening.

Sounds like you think SWA can do anything they want as long as they have "their building full of lawyers" so did Enron, Lehman Bros, Merrill Lynch etc. Not comparing SWA to them but simply making the observation that corporate arrogance tends to come back and bite with very ugly consequences.

 

[texman]

We have two airplanes and three domiciles that SWA is choosing from. They are throwing seniority out the window. Nothing against the SWA pilots, we know what kind of BS you guys get fed now.

Thx. On this side of the partition most of the pilot group has done what they can to help facilitate the 15 % RIOC. I hope MGT can deliver. No growth within the next 2-3 years and price of oil stays the same, this will be one pissed off pilot group. So hopefully the pain will not continue.

 

[scoreboardII]

corporate arrogance tends to come back and bite with very ugly consequences.

It already is.

 

[madjack]

The problem with throwing more money at one subset of the seniority lists (former AAI pilots who "lost CP" seats as a result of 717 going away) is that it further divides the group...in addition SWAPA may have an issue with the company awarding extra moneys to a subset of AAI pilots without commensurate compensation for the SWA pilots.

Mgmt's call, but the potential negative reactoin on the SWA side to former AAI 717 CPs (now SWA FOs) being awarded damages for the 717 going away will certainly factor into the decision. Not my money, I don't care...

 

[redflyer65]

I know it's hard to admit that this might actually be something that was handled poorly but really, if you're an AirTran Captain who went to a road show, had a Southwest management representative tell you that you were keeping your Captain seat, the Agreement says you will keep your Captain seat, and that the planes are staying until 2017, then suddenly they're not and you lose between $250,000 and $500,000 (that's half a Million Dollars, by the way), before you can re-upgrade... you think that's not offensive?

Lear,

I can't quite follow the Half a Million Dollars line above.

Here are the numbers when I run them side by side (using two different line numbers with both Max payrates)....


AAI CA 75/hr = 12,825
SW FO 90/trp= 11,955

AAI CA 80/hr = 13,680
SW FO 100/trp = 13,284

I understand your arguement about being sold something like keeping the planes, and I can understand if someone might not want to move from the left seat to the right, but the pay looks pretty close to me...where is the huge loss in wages?

RF

 

[PCL_128]

Red, you're missing the part where they were going to be 717 captains on SWA wages starting in Jan 2015 until the leases expired, which for the most senior pilots, would have been until 2022 when the last airplane would have left.

 

[redflyer65]

That makes sense PCL. But even that doesn't add up to 300k, much less a Half a Million.

As Scoreboard elluded, management will work around any large payout. They will position themselves to get what they want, they usually do.

 

[PanPan]

I don't understand why so many rsw are rooting against fat guys. And I don't understand how on one hand some rsw guys can say "you're not SWA, and don't deserve what we have until you get the badge", but on the the other hand complain that we are not entitled to anything they don't get.

 

[redflyer65]

Not rooting against them. Just being realistic with how SW management negotiates.

Very similiar when many SW employees told the AAI MEC that management plays hardball. They tried to call Gary's bluff. The rest is a massive loss for every Airtran pilot. We've seen it before, they hadn't.

Think of it this way...SW negotiates everyday behind the scenes, for everything. From the peanut vendor all the way to the tire manufacturer and beyond. How many contracts are they negotiating in a month for around 100 thousand flights? The numbers are staggering. In no way am I telling the AAI guys what to do, but be aware, it's a tough road ahead.

 

[PCL_128]

That makes sense PCL. But even that doesn't add up to 300k, much less a Half a Million.

Sure it does. The difference between an FO and CA is easily $75k per year, far more for someone who really wants to work. Extrapolate that out for 3-7 years, depending on how senior someone is and could have held out on the 717 while the leases expired over a period of years, and someone could have easily racked up in excess of a half million in additional compensation over what they'll receive now.

 

[redflyer65]

Your off on your numbers and in the end, I don't think it will matter anyway. Be interesting to see how it plays out either way. Good luck.

 

[Lear70]

Our most junior 717 Captain who was going to keep his seat isn't senior enough on the combined list to hold it. He will not upgrade again for 8 years.

8 years at CA pay versus F/O pay at Southwest is easily $500k including the additional 401(k) match and profit sharing, between $60-75k per year are the numbers we have between guarantee and average lineholder swapping a little in ELITT and Daily HOT/POT, etc.

In the end, it certainly does matter to those pilots. They bid 717 CA expecting to remain Captains. To say that they shouldn't expect some recompense for that is disingenuous.

Let me put it this way: If the guy who is suing for AAI pilots to be able to bid 737 CA wins and suddenly all 373 AAI pilots who can hold 737 CA per the ISL come over as CA's, would your senior F/O's who are expecting to grab those CA seats not be just as angry and demanding something be done since the SIA was designed for those CA seats to come to senior SWA F/O's?

I bet your guys would be screaming bloody murder, and rightfully so. So why, when the shoe is on the other foot, and our pilots are having something taken away that they voted for and were told they would have, do your guys have such a beef with them getting anything to compensate for the change of deal?

In truth, there may be nothing that is done, SWA eats the additional training costs, and we keep trucking down the road, but I keep hoping that they try to engender a little good will versus what we have now where we just keep having the cheese moved on a monthly basis that is already taking real money out of our wallets (reduced flying = less pay) and will continue to moving forward (loss of CA's seats and CA pay at SWA for 717 pilots).

I know, I know... wish in one hand and...

 

[K-Mart]

Well what do you think they are going to do??

I got a guess.....the cheapest route. Wonder what that is???

 

[canyonblue]

I bet your guys would be screaming bloody murder, and rightfully so.

There are already a ton of guys at Southwest screaming, and I don't think you will convince any one over here that things didn't play out like they were told it would. Sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here.

 

[scoreboardII]

Think of it this way, SWA management wouldn't even entertain the beginning of a discussion on right of return because "it isn't the right thing to do" and unfair to AT pilots. Now, imagine their thought process when AT pilots ask for "help" on the 717 movement even though that was a known possibility. My wager is they will say "it isn't the right thing to do" and unfair to SWA pilots. Our good deal recently was deferral of new jets...

 

[Lear70]

Think of it this way, SWA management wouldn't even entertain the beginning of a discussion on right of return because "it isn't the right thing to do" and unfair to AT pilots. Now, imagine their thought process when AT pilots ask for "help" on the 717 movement even though that was a known possibility. My wager is they will say "it isn't the right thing to do" and unfair to SWA pilots. Our good deal recently was deferral of new jets...

Point taken.

AirTran guys aren't trying to pi$$ off any of our SWA brethren, this isn't about that, just trying to explain why the push for something to compensate for the huge hit to the SIA and the expectations of our guys and gals. It may result in something, it may not, but I imagine if the shoe were on the other foot, your pilots would be telling SWAPA reps to try their best to do what they could do about it.

Either way, we'll all get through this, one day at a time until it's all done and we turn the lights out on Airways Blvd for the last time and the last AAI employee has a SWA I.D. Until then, stay thirsty and have fun out there. :beer:

 

[humveedriver]

It's just been very eye opening that SWA management would create these conditions for so much angst to exist between the two work groups. For the next 2 and a half years, possibly more, we are going to see constant changes to the transition bid. Some planes will leave on time, others won't. The lynchpin in the transition is SWA's ability to get the int'l reservation system working. That should have been done before SOC, not after. So instead of being leaders and doing the correct planning to make this journey as smooth as possible. They have elected to make the employees the shock absorbers of a poorly executed plan. Im not saying that this merger or any other airline merger needs to get done in a week. But, to make continual changes to a plan, whereby; one change benefits one side and adversely effects the other is not smart. That approach doesn't foster a great culture.

 

[SWA717]

It's just been very eye opening that SWA management would create these conditions for so much angst to exist between the two work groups. For the next 2 and a half years, possibly more, we are going to see constant changes to the transition bid. Some planes will leave on time, others won't. The lynchpin in the transition is SWA's ability to get the int'l reservation system working. That should have been done before SOC, not after. So instead of being leaders and doing the correct planning to make this journey as smooth as possible. They have elected to make the employees the shock absorbers of a poorly executed plan. Im not saying that this merger or any other airline merger needs to get done in a week. But, to make continual changes to a plan, whereby; one change benefits one side and adversely effects the other is not smart. That approach doesn't foster a great culture.

Amen!

 

[SWA717]

I am absolutely shocked that we have SWA pilots on here telling us that we should have negotiated our transition based on something "possibly" happening. What a load s$&t! This gets more comical by the day as the culture gets more tainted.

 

[FlyinGuy]

A few years ago, SWA had pilots that were forced back to f/o. No matter how loud they screamed or how much they complained, they were not given one penny for their "lost" compensation. You might be able to use the breach of contract argument, but you will have a difficult time gaining any compensation over the argument.

You have to remember that SWA has the right to change or modify it's fleet plans. There are many guys that should have upgraded by now, but planes were deferred. The company is not obligated to pay those pilots any additional compensation because they modified their business model.

So what do you do? You move forward with your complaints, but I would be careful about placing numbers in guys heads on what they are owed. That will only cause more undue frustration for your members.

 

[FlyinGuy]

I am absolutely shocked that we have SWA pilots on here telling us that we should have negotiated our transition based on something "possibly" happening. What a load s$&t! This gets more comical by the day as the culture gets more tainted.

Don't judge our "culture" or our pilot group on what you read on FI. That is mistake number one.......

 

[humveedriver]

A few years ago, SWA had pilots that were forced back to f/o. No matter how loud they screamed or how much they complained, they were not given one penny for their "lost" compensation. You might be able to use the breach of contract argument, but you will have a difficult time gaining any compensation over the argument.

You have to remember that SWA has the right to change or modify it's fleet plans. There are many guys that should have upgraded by now, but planes were deferred. The company is not obligated to pay those pilots any additional compensation because they modified their business model.

So what do you do? You move forward with your complaints, but I would be careful about placing numbers in guys heads on what they are owed. That will only cause more undue frustration for your members.

That scenario exists at every airline. We too had downgrades even furloughs after 2008. New hires promised 3 year upgrades turned to 6-9 years. It's all relative. We accepted the deal with SWA because GK did not want it to go to arbitration. He went on about running AT seperately. We all know this. This is more than just deferring a few aircraft. It's about an agreement that he made with both pilot groups to avoid arbitration.