Former Tranny bidding SW Captain prior to 2015?

[waveflyer]

I just wish you'd post a video you say you have Lear. Bc right now, what Swa pilots know is that GK has always said he'd get rid of the 717's when he could. Turns out to be sooner than later.
Can you tell us the three things that need relief?

 

[Cometman]

I just wish you'd post a video you say you have Lear. Bc right now, what Swa pilots know is that GK has always said he'd get rid of the 717's when he could. Turns out to be sooner than later.
Can you tell us the three things that need relief?

Ask Lear to post the case law he mentioned. I am not surprised that he cannot post it. If there was case law I am sure PCL would have mentioned it after Lear ran his mouth. Lear70 was a trouble maker and will always be a trouble maker. Remember, you can take the animal out of the jungle but you cannot take the jungle out of the animal.

 

[Jim]

Dan, aren't you simply afraid swa will buy Hawaiian? And like PCL years before, you also don't believe your pilots would do well in an acquisition situation?
Isn't that the deal- you've put your eggs in a niche carrier that is a takeover target and don't like the leverage you have in that situation....
I mean that's it, right? You want more than the leverage you have would give.

I don't think any Hawaiian plot is worried about Southwest buying us. And if by some small chance this did happen, your "winning the lottery" BS wouldn't work with us. We have a great lifestyle, a great culture, and a great contract.

 

[vixin]

Can't change the seniority list, so it will have to be money.

But it was never about the money. You also need to listen to wasn't said with GK. I have my doubts he stated without a doubt the 717's would stay on property UNTIL each of there leases expired. $500,000 loss of income for an AAI CA and you guys want that...LMFAO.

 

[Dan Roman]

I don't think any Hawaiian plot is worried about Southwest buying us. And if by some small chance this did happen, your "winning the lottery" BS wouldn't work with us. We have a great lifestyle, a great culture, and a great contract.

Really.
Them...We are going to operate you separately!
Us.......OK!

Like I said, the chances of SWA wanting to operate a relatively small long haul A330 operation in the Pacific seems pretty remote to me.

 

[Lear70]

I just wish you'd post a video you say you have Lear. Bc right now, what Swa pilots know is that GK has always said he'd get rid of the 717's when he could. Turns out to be sooner than later.
Can you tell us the three things that need relief?

I didn't say I had it personally. I specifically said AirTran ALPA has it and Legal advised the MEC not to release it. Therefore neither I nor anyone else outside ALPA tech people who recorded it and ALPA legal have it but you can ask other AirTran pilots who attended road shows where our tech guy was recording it...

It's not a secret and as I said, you won't find AirTran pilots who attended a road show who will say they heard anything about the 717 going away early and the question came up almost every road show.

That said, I know what you are being told and the facts simply don't support it. You don't get the deal we had with pages and pages built around an aircraft if we knew it wasn't sticking around. It's simply wouldn't have happened and, deep down, everyone realizes that simple truth whether they want to admit it or not.

I simply want Southwest to make it right with our pilots and move down the road making money for everyone. No animosity, no anger, just the desire for Southwest to fix the situation they created.

Oh yeah almost forgot. Three items:

You can't take pilots awarded 717 TBA SWA positions ahead of pilots awarded 737 SWA in the transition per the flush bid. Next year only 717's are leaving. No 737's. That means they will have to take 737 pilots to SWA, and then train 717 pilots on the 737 AT AIRTRAN. Then they train again at SWA a year or so later. Double training is expensive.

2nd, the SIA call for the establishment of a new 717 domicile before the transition is done. So they have to open a base and then close it as the 717's go do Delta. That's millions of dollars as well.

Can anyone guess the third? Pop quiz on SLI languange...

 

[PCL_128]

Can anyone guess the third? Pop quiz on SLI languange...

Doesn't really matter. Based on our record of lacking any balls, why wouldn't Gary just ignore it and tell us to "fly it and grieve it?"

 

[K-Mart]

Doesn't really matter. Based on our record of lacking any balls, why wouldn't Gary just ignore it and tell us to "fly it and grieve it?"

You guys had balls. Remember you voted down the first SLI

 

[Lear70]

Doesn't really matter. Based on our record of lacking any balls, why wouldn't Gary just ignore it and tell us to "fly it and grieve it?"

Well that's one way to look at it... lol

In this case however, if they ignored the biggest ticket item, pulling pilots out of order per the flush bid over to Southwest, you'd end up with every pilot senior to them grieving the loss of pay. That's Millions of dollars,,, and if the MEC didn't fight that fight for the pilot group, they'd likely get sued for DFR so they're going to have to fix it.

The big question is, will the MEC continue to hold the line and make sure we get something of EQUAL or BETTER value for giving them relief on that... Only time will tell.

 

[PCL_128]

I could think of an argument or two that SWA management could use to claim that they didn't need to renegotiate the flush bid after the loss of the 717s. An arbitrator could buy one of those arguments. Granted, those arguments would be disingenuous and in bad faith, but I expect nothing less from them at this point.

 

[texman]

So on the current bid, who comes over first the most JR or SR. FO's and or Capts.

 

[humveedriver]

So on the current bid, who comes over first the most JR or SR. FO's and or Capts.

We have two airplanes and three domiciles that SWA is choosing from. They are throwing seniority out the window. Nothing against the SWA pilots, we know what kind of BS you guys get fed now.

 

[Dan Roman]

We have two airplanes and three domiciles that SWA is choosing from. They are throwing seniority out the window. Nothing against the SWA pilots, we know what kind of BS you guys get fed now.

Hey, if you have that warrior spirit it's OK!

 

[scoreboardII]

Again, a quote to a media outlet saying they will be gone sooner than later, with NO SPECIFIC DATES (that's zero, zilch, nada, NONE) and then EXPRESS PROMISES, both to the Negotiating Committee AND at MULTIPLE road shows to our pilots, by Southwest Executives, that the 717 would remain until the leases terminated, thus upholding all the terms of the SIA, are two completely, separate things.

One is a general, non-specific statement to the media.

The other is a promise to a pilot group and the basis of a Legal Agreement.

You guys are taking the ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS position that we would KNOWINGLY negotiate NO protections for ANY of our Captains then, along with Southwest Management representatives, go out on the road and sell them to the pilot group, along with aircraft retirement charts and graphs, how many Captains are protected, how many are not (not to even mention the "To Be Announced" 717 2nd base that has NO loophole to be canceled in the SIA).

It's a ludicrous position to say "You knew the 717's were going away, but you negotiated dozens of pages about it in an Agreement and negotiated no other protections". It's asinine. Really, listen to yourselves... it sounds ridiculous enough being on the inside, much less to anyone else that's not a Southwest employee. I can't believe I'm still having to explain this to people...

I know it's hard to admit that this might actually be something that was handled poorly but really, if you're an AirTran Captain who went to a road show, had a Southwest management representative tell you that you were keeping your Captain seat, the Agreement says you will keep your Captain seat, and that the planes are staying until 2017, then suddenly they're not and you lose between $250,000 and $500,000 (that's half a Million Dollars, by the way), before you can re-upgrade... you think that's not offensive?

There's 3 inflexible things in the Seniority Integration Agreement that are based on the 717 that CANNOT BE NULLIFIED. It's going to cost Southwest almost $50 Million dollars if we do not give them relief from those provisions. Now tell me, if Southwest thought the airplane was going away early, do you think those provisions would be so inflexible?

And yes, Southwest has already asked for relief on those items. We said No, until we get a major bone thrown towards our Captains or pay parity for the entire group. If it doesn't happen, no relief will be given. That's why negotiations continue every few weeks... they need relief and we ain't giving it until they figure out how to make this right. Can't change the seniority list, so it will have to be money.

Not angry; it's just business and what happens when you change an agreement that adversely affects one party.

Lear, welcome to SWA.

What you need to realize is this deal is costing every FO about $60,000 each and every year they don't upgrade with the jets SWA just bought.

It' a two way street, we are both pissed, I'm over it, lets move on to the next alligator closest to the canoe.

I'll up our ludicrous point and call it insane to think you have any position of merit to fallback on as evidence supporting a claim that SWA, in writting, guaranteed not to sell the 717 prior to 2017. None. But do keep poking the hand that feeds you, hold out to the end on your points because you'll most likely find yourelf on the street.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, welcome to SWA.

What you need to realize is this deal is costing every FO about $60,000 each and every year they don't upgrade with the jets SWA just bought.

It' a two way street, we are both pissed, I'm over it, lets move on to the next alligator closest to the canoe.

I'll up our ludicrous point and call it insane to think you have any position of merit to fallback on as evidence supporting a claim that SWA, in writting, guaranteed not to sell the 717 prior to 2017. None. But do keep poking the hand that feeds you, hold out to the end on your points because you'll most likely find yourelf on the street.

I certainly do understand the angst from your mid-level and junior F/O's. The senior F/O's are upgrading at the expense of our Captains. There are only 300 or so of our F/O's who will delay anything for anyone... It's our Captains re-upgrading that delays them and yes it will cost them money too. I never said it wouldn't.

I simply said that we made a deal with Southwest. They changed the deal. They therefore need to address the negative impact of those changes.

And if respectfully and politely negotiating for that is "poking the hand that feeds you" is something that gets one fired here, then I suppose the entire MEC, Contract Compliance Committee, Negotiating Committee, and MEC Chair, Vice Chair, and Sec Treas are in for it huh? That's 23 people so far. I somewhat dobt it however. We are still out here, doing our jobs, telling the rest of the pilots to keep doing their jobs as well, and working within the system as it was designed. Don't think that justifies anything but hey, I've been wrong before.

 

[scoreboardII]

the corporate memory here at good old SWA is long and sometimes vindictive, best of luck, I mean that, take care.

 

[Dan Roman]

the corporate memory here at good old SWA is long and sometimes vindictive, best of luck, I mean that, take care.

Looks to me like Lear is taking a very pragmatic and correct stand, the situation you describe could find SWA's "vindictive" management style landing them in legal hot water. They may think they are little warriors, but that doesn't mean they are free to do anything they want.

 

[scoreboardII]

says the man with no dog in the fight.

Listen, SWA will do what SWA will do, thinking you have an iron clad contract to stop them, with their building full of lawyers who knew the answer a year before any of this came to light, has never stopped SWA from getting what they want. Look at the Wright ammendment.

Can't fly out of state out of LUV? Watch as we fly to LBB first. Can't sell 717's early? Watch this... And it may not be what you think... It sure won't be a cash reward to pilots, I assure you. Cash to one side means cash to both, thats not happening.

 

[Dan Roman]

says the man with no dog in the fight.

Listen, SWA will do what SWA will do, thinking you have an iron clad contract to stop them, with their building full of lawyers who knew the answer a year before any of this came to light, has never stopped SWA from getting what they want. Look at the Wright ammendment.

Can't fly out of state out of LUV? Watch as we fly to LBB first. Can't sell 717's early? Watch this... And it may not be what you think... It sure won't be a cash reward to pilots, I assure you. Cash to one side means cash to both, thats not happening.

Sounds like you think SWA can do anything they want as long as they have "their building full of lawyers" so did Enron, Lehman Bros, Merrill Lynch etc. Not comparing SWA to them but simply making the observation that corporate arrogance tends to come back and bite with very ugly consequences.

 

[texman]

We have two airplanes and three domiciles that SWA is choosing from. They are throwing seniority out the window. Nothing against the SWA pilots, we know what kind of BS you guys get fed now.

Thx. On this side of the partition most of the pilot group has done what they can to help facilitate the 15 % RIOC. I hope MGT can deliver. No growth within the next 2-3 years and price of oil stays the same, this will be one pissed off pilot group. So hopefully the pain will not continue.