Former Tranny bidding SW Captain prior to 2015?

[scoreboardII]

Not that it has any relevance at this point but I think in the interests of preserving the SW culture, I believe letting the process play out (as mutually agreed) and taking the SLI to arbitration would've removed the resentment on both sides. After all, don't blame my group or me, blame the arbitrator!

You are right, because thats worked so well for USair.

 

[scoreboardII]

Is that warrior speak for "we screwed you over now forget about it and be our bitch's"?

I'm sorry, did you have a vote in this?

 

[Dan Roman]

I'm sorry, did you have a vote in this?

Seriously?
I hate to break it to you but FltInfo is not a SWA specific website, it's a website for people from ALL airlines to voice opinions. In fact, it's good to hear different perspectives from pilots from different backgrounds, you can actually learn something. But again, do you really think you have some kind of SWA exclusivity on here? Don't you guys also have your own internal site? You really think you can voice your opinions from a SWA perspective only and not expect input from anyone that doesn't agree with you?? On an industry wide web board, Really? Sounds like unchecked warrior spirit to me.

Mergers and how they go down are in fact, everyone's business. I actually was hoping SWA would come up with a more civil version. You didn't. So far DAL/NWA has been the fairest in recent years. The way SWA handled it will obviously have consequences, as well it should. If SWA had come up with a more equitable merger they would have had greater harmony, the path they took was at the expense of a more cohesive pilot force. Some will accept it and move on some simply will not forget being screwed by "Gary" and SWAPA. That was SWA's choice.

But the bottom line is your little warrior spirit seems to have blinded you from the fact that other people can and are entitled to have an opinion on this, even if it is different from yours.

 

[waveflyer]

Lear, from another thread- can you respond to this? I know you say you have secret notes, but doesn't public trump private? And most I know here say they've never known swa to flat out lie to employee groups.. Which is what you're saying since all the execs have stated numerous times they intended from the beginning to opt out of the 71's when possible.
Alpa on the other hand..., but I digress- below is proof swa and both AT and swa pilots knew from the beginning that 71's were going away.

AFcitrus- do you have timing on that "we love the 717?"
Bc I was in the room months before sl2 hearing GK announcing very publicly that the 717 would not be part of SWA's plan.
This article was in August 2011- the tentative agreement was reached in sept'11, and voted in by 84% in November -
Now can we dispense with the bs that somehow AT was mislead?
Here's the public part:
http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10372945/southwest-boeing-717-not-part-of-future-fleet-plans

TERRY MAXON
SOURCE: THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS
CREATED: AUGUST 30, 2011
--

Aug. 30--ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. -- Southwest Airlines Co. has concluded that the small Boeing 717s that it picked up in the AirTran Airways Inc. merger don't really fit into its fleet plans, chairman and chief executive Gary Kelly said Monday.

"It's not different enough or unique enough that it really brings any advantage beyond what a 737 would do," Kelly said at the Boyd Group International aviation conference at a resort near Albuquerque.

With leases expiring between 2017 and 2024, the airplanes may stay in the Southwest fleet for quite a while, but Kelly said the future of the 717s, which it leases from Boeing, is among the matters under discussion as Southwest talks to Boeing about future aircraft orders.

"It's a good airplane, but not one that I see we have to maintain for the next 20 years," Kelly said.

Kelly noted that Southwest didn't see a need for anything smaller than its 137-seat Boeing 737-700s before deciding in 2010 to buy AirTran. Southwest operates 25 Boeing 737-500s, which has 122 seats, but hasn't bought any that size in two decades."

Also:
Aug 5, 2011: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/southwest-appears-less-bullish-on-717-360443/

Aug 30, 2011- USA today- Are air tran pilots the one pilot group that doesn't read the mcpaper?
http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2011/08/southwest-boeing-717/545260/1

CAPTIONBy Ben Mutzabaugh, USA TODAY
Southwest CEO Gary Kelly says the Boeing 717s acquired in his airline's acquisition of AirTran will disappear from the company's fleet sooner than later.

 

[waveflyer]

Dan, aren't you simply afraid swa will buy Hawaiian? And like PCL years before, you also don't believe your pilots would do well in an acquisition situation?
Isn't that the deal- you've put your eggs in a niche carrier that is a takeover target and don't like the leverage you have in that situation....
I mean that's it, right? You want more than the leverage you have would give.

 

[SWA717]

SWA was so concerned about the culture going into this that I hope they didn't f&^k it up handling the merger the way they did. I try not to be a negative Nelly on here, but moral and spirits really suck on this side of the fence. And the animosity seems to be getting worse. What a total cluster ....

 

[Kharma Police]

You are right, because thats worked so well for USair.

I do love sarcasm, it didn't work because one side decided to not honor the binding agreement.

 

[Citrusflyer]

Not related but when will the survey results be released?

As soon as they sanitize the results to make things look like they're all kumbaya-kosher-oneluv-lookin'-happyasaclam-employee group. Probably another 60-90 days or so...

 

[flint4xx]

Apparently you morons like to ignore how the world works. The company isn't afraid of a lawsuit from some ass pilot...

 

[PCL_128]

Dan, aren't you simply afraid swa will buy Hawaiian? And like PCL years before, you also don't believe your pilots would do well in an acquisition situation?
Isn't that the deal- you've put your eggs in a niche carrier that is a takeover target and don't like the leverage you have in that situation....
I mean that's it, right? You want more than the leverage you have would give.

I'm sure he's not worried about that. Unlike our pilots, I'm sure the HAL pilots would stand up for themselves. Unfortunately, that's bad for the ATN pilots (again), because we would end up under all of them as well after they get a fair integration. Personally, I'm hoping and praying that Gary decides organic growth is better for the next 20 years.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan, aren't you simply afraid swa will buy Hawaiian? And like PCL years before, you also don't believe your pilots would do well in an acquisition situation?
Isn't that the deal- you've put your eggs in a niche carrier that is a takeover target and don't like the leverage you have in that situation....
I mean that's it, right? You want more than the leverage you have would give.

Too funny, I'm getting under your skin wave? Don't mean too, but my perspective does come from a personal interest in how mergers go down. I've said that myself on here a couple times. That's why it IS 'other" peoples business on here.
As far as SWA buying Hawaiian? I'm not in the least concerned about that. Somehow I don't see SWA getting into the long haul A330 Pacific flying business as a way to expand their niche, in fact what we do (our niche) is so different in anyway to the SWA business plan that our merging is probably the least likely matchup in the industry. In fact you guys approached us about a codeshare after ATA went down and it was deemed by both sides (as I understand it Mark Dunkerley and Gary Kelley are friends) that the two airlines business's were simply too different to codeshare. We are in a whole different type of business model than you, both work but they don't mix. Besides, you guys now have a track record with mergers that couldn't go down in Hawaii.
And for the record, I think we would do very well in any merger. In fact, the simple fact is, we all are pretty happy with the flying we do, inter-island or transpac, which is of course is our career expectations. so that's our legal starting point in any merger.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, from another thread- can you respond to this? I know you say you have secret notes, but doesn't public trump private?

Well certainly, that's an easy one. Let me highlight a few things from that and put it into perspective of not ONLY what was said in closed session negotiations, but what was ALSO said at our road shows by Southwest management and which we also have on video. We video taped a couple road shows with the intentions of posting the videos online to pilots who couldn't get to them but Legal said (for various reasons) it would be best not to post it, but we still have them with the SWA execs on tape answering questions about the 717 deal, saying said they would be around until at least their lease terminations, which is what we based the deal on and what our pilots based their vote on. The bolded excerpts from the public announcement you posted reflect NO change from that stance of 717 retention until lease termination:

TERRY MAXON
SOURCE: THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS
CREATED: AUGUST 30, 2011
--

Aug. 30--ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. -- Southwest Airlines Co. has concluded that the small Boeing 717s that it picked up in the AirTran Airways Inc. merger don't really fit into its fleet plans, chairman and chief executive Gary Kelly said Monday.

"It's not different enough or unique enough that it really brings any advantage beyond what a 737 would do," Kelly said at the Boyd Group International aviation conference at a resort near Albuquerque.

With leases expiring between 2017 and 2024, the airplanes may stay in the Southwest fleet for quite a while, but Kelly said the future of the 717s, which it leases from Boeing, is among the matters under discussion as Southwest talks to Boeing about future aircraft orders.

"It's a good airplane, but not one that I see we have to maintain for the next 20 years," Kelly said.

Kelly noted that Southwest didn't see a need for anything smaller than its 137-seat Boeing 737-700s before deciding in 2010 to buy AirTran. Southwest operates 25 Boeing 737-500s, which has 122 seats, but hasn't bought any that size in two decades."

Also:
Aug 5, 2011: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...on-717-360443/

Aug 30, 2011- USA today- Are air tran pilots the one pilot group that doesn't read the mcpaper?
http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...g-717/545260/1

CAPTIONBy Ben Mutzabaugh, USA TODAY
Southwest CEO Gary Kelly says the Boeing 717s acquired in his airline's acquisition of AirTran will disappear from the company's fleet sooner than later.

So again, to recap, Gary Kelly publicly reiterated the lease expirations beginning in 2017 through 2024, which is what execs ALSO told us in closed session negotiations, which is ALSO what execs told pilots at road shows.

Then he went on to say that he doesn't see the aircraft remaining for the next 20 years. Exactly what Southwest management told us. "When the leases are up, the aircraft will go".

Then lastly from the USA Today, you get a quote that they will leave "Sooner than later". Again, that is in NO way, shape, or form a change in stance that they will start going away when their leases are up beginning in 5 years. From an airline that's been in business decades, a 5 year plan to START retiring an aircraft is pretty quick, relatively speaking, and fits the "Sooner than later".

And most I know here say they've never known swa to flat out lie to employee groups.. Which is what you're saying since all the execs have stated numerous times they intended from the beginning to opt out of the 71's when possible.

Alpa on the other hand..., but I digress- below is proof swa and both AT and swa pilots knew from the beginning that 71's were going away.

717's were going away? Certainly... starting in 2017. I disagree completely that it's proof of ANYTHING else in any way, shape, or form. Find me a quote, during negotiations for the SLI, that said, VERY specifically, "We are looking for a way to remove the 717 from our operations prior to their lease expiration dates".

Just one.

It has to SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT, because all the other references you've listed do is vaguely outline that they "HAVE NO LONG-TERM PLAN FOR THE 717" which we most certainly knew going in, but they never, ever said they were looking for an early-out solution prior to lease termination.

Come on, you can't HONESTLY think that we'd base AN ENTIRE FREAKING SLI and THE ONLY PROTECTIONS WE WERE ABLE TO OBTAIN on an aircraft that they had told us was going to go away before we could even transition? Really? That was the only way our CA's got protected; they get to SWA as CA's, then as the airplanes start going away when the leases expire and are replaced with 737's they can transition to 737 CA (if their seniority can hold it), and most were seat protected throughout the entire 717 draw-down per the original leases. That was the intent of the Seniority Integration Agreement and nothing anyone says can alter that. Period. End of the discussion.

And I never said they flat-out lied. I'm saying that they told us the planes were remaining until the leases expired. They said it in negotiations. They said it at road shows ON TAPE. Then they negotiated a deal with Delta that has effectively gutted almost EVERY provision of the entire SLI and left only what Allegheny-Mohawk and McCaskill-Bond already allow, plus a date (that will be missed by almost a year) that it's supposed to be done, plus a no-furlough clause. That's not a lie, that's changing their minds on what was agreed after the fact, which means they need to address the changes with us.

Basically, except for a position on a list and a no-furlough clause, there might as well not even BE an SIA with the elimination of the 717; everything else is guaranteed by law now that pilots and assets have started transitioning.

Quite simply, people are smoking crack if they think we negotiated that deal with even a HINT that the 717 would go away prior to the lease expirations.

 

[scoreboardII]

Seriously?
I hate to break it to you but FltInfo is not a SWA specific website, it's a website for people from ALL airlines to voice opinions. In fact, it's good to hear different perspectives from pilots from different backgrounds, you can actually learn something. But again, do you really think you have some kind of SWA exclusivity on here? Don't you guys also have your own internal site? You really think you can voice your opinions from a SWA perspective only and not expect input from anyone that doesn't agree with you?? On an industry wide web board, Really? Sounds like unchecked warrior spirit to me.

Mergers and how they go down are in fact, everyone's business. I actually was hoping SWA would come up with a more civil version. You didn't. So far DAL/NWA has been the fairest in recent years. The way SWA handled it will obviously have consequences, as well it should. If SWA had come up with a more equitable merger they would have had greater harmony, the path they took was at the expense of a more cohesive pilot force. Some will accept it and move on some simply will not forget being screwed by "Gary" and SWAPA. That was SWA's choice.

But the bottom line is your little warrior spirit seems to have blinded you from the fact that other people can and are entitled to have an opinion on this, even if it is different from yours.

You made my point, your opinions are just ramblings, no positive input to the discussion.

 

[scoreboardII]

Lear, you are cherry picking parts of a sentence:

With leases expiring between 2017 and 2024,

the airplanes may stay in the Southwest fleet for quite a while, but Kelly said the future of the 717s, which it leases from Boeing, is among the matters under discussion as Southwest talks to Boeing about future aircraft orders.

"It's a good airplane, but not one that I see we have to maintain for the next 20 years," Kelly said.

You need to read the bold italicized to understand the 717 wouild be gone sooner than later with no promise express or implied otherwise.

 

[Dan Roman]

Lear, from another thread- can you respond to this? I know you say you have secret notes, but doesn't public trump private? And most I know here say they've never known swa to flat out lie to employee groups.. Which is what you're saying since all the execs have stated numerous times they intended from the beginning to opt out of the 71's when possible.
Alpa on the other hand..., but I digress- below is proof swa and both AT and swa pilots knew from the beginning that 71's were going away.

Wave, I'm surprised from you. Take that as a compliment you certainly have had a more mature response record than the tankerclown outerlimits etc SWA folks on here (although I'm not clear were you stand on the whole RJ debate). That said, do you really think the AirTran pilots were made fully aware of what SWA had planned for them AFTER the SLI was rammed down their throats? Clearly they weren't aware of that or they would have negotiated accordingly. Obviously SWA was in a hurry to get the SLI so they could proceed with divesting themselves of the 717's because of the money involved, at the expense of letting a fair integration work out. I guess you could say it's just business, but it has consequences.