Ford may sell jets

[Raskal]

I'm pretty sure most Euro diesels, although they have good fuel economy, don't meet US emissions standards and that's why they aren't available domestically.

They have for some time met 49 state standards (Cali being the odd one out) but now the Germans are all bringing or already have clean diesels that meet all state standards for this model year.

The Jetta TDI is a 50 state car, just won the "Green Car of the Year" title over two hybrids due to better mileage, starts at $21,700 and doesn't use that silly blue-tec system that Merc and BMW are employing.

We had a pre-production version over the summer for a week and averaged 55mpg highway and 40 city. Thing is amazing and has none of the diesel sound or exhaust and tons of torque. Great drive.

For the life of me, I cannot understand the hybrid craze-the technology isn't there and the mileage is often much worse than sticker due to 'real-world' driving. Electric cars are very, very far off for practical use and have absolutely no application in anything but small passenger cars. Look around on the highway, electric simply cannot and will not work for all those trucks that run our economy and yet, idiots in the media continue to assail the big three for not producing enough hybrids...

We have the technology now for clean diesel but thanks to GM's spectacular POS in the 80's (Olds) the American public forever believes that all diesels are terrible. We are once again headed down the wrong path due to politics (ie-the E85 crap), misconceptions and general ignorance. Big surprise.

 

[GIVSP]

Gulfstream200, " Retard Congressman " ? You bring a wealth of knowledge to this board, and I admire that. All I ask is that you refrain from using the word "Retard". Kind of close to home, Thanks

 

[gret]

GIVSP,

Not close to home for me, but I think most of us agree 100%.

 

[BoilerUP]

They have for some time met 49 state standards (Cali being the odd one out) but now the Germans are all bringing or already have clean diesels that meet all state standards for this model year.

I said some Euro diesels don't meet US standards.

The Jetta TDI is a 50 state car, just won the "Green Car of the Year" title over two hybrids due to better mileage, starts at $21,700 and doesn't use that silly blue-tec system that Merc and BMW are employing.

I know a guy that drives an 8-10 year old Jetta TDI...that thing regularly gets over 50mpg on the highway. Other than a slight rumble at start and a somewhat rougher idle than a gasoline car, you'd never know its a diesel.

I'd love for VW to bring their new Jetta diesel hybrid to the states...that thing is the epitome of a modern "fuel miser".

We have the technology now for clean diesel but thanks to GM's spectacular POS in the 80's (Olds) the American public forever believes that all diesels are terrible.

I think people are coming around on that...at least in the truck realm. The Cummins, Powerstroke, and Allison diesels offered by the Big 3 having spectacular power & torque numbers accompanied by good fuel economy. GM is also starting to look more into diesel cars, with them putting a new 2.8L diesel into the European Cadillac CTS and considering the 4.5L Duramax diesel as an option for the domestic CTS.

I'd personally LOVE to have an Opel Astra TwinTop, which gets over 47mpg with the diesel option.

 

[Raskal]

I think people are coming around on that...at least in the truck realm. The Cummins, Powerstroke, and Allison diesels offered by the Big 3 having spectacular power & torque numbers accompanied by good fuel economy. GM is also starting to look more into diesel cars, with them putting a new 2.8L diesel into the European Cadillac CTS and considering the 4.5L Duramax diesel as an option for the domestic CTS.

I'd personally LOVE to have an Opel Astra TwinTop, which gets over 47mpg with the diesel option.

See, that's part of my issue. For the European markets the big three have some fantastic cars-especially on the diesel front, but they won't bring them here in any significant numbers. Instead, it's only hybrids.

As for the changing reputation, it seems like more people are getting it but the average American still thinks "bus" when you say the word diesel. It's too bad because even though the 3-series, VW lineup and a number of Mercedes will have the diesel available the American companies are really the ones who would change public opinion in large numbers.

 

[BushwickBill]

Here is one reason:
MINI Cooper D (yes, that's Diesel) 80 mpg highway, 60 mpg city!. 1.6L/ 110hp. Topspeed 121 mph.
1 million MINI's sold in 6 years. Owned by BMW.

The Toyota Prius doesn't even come close. Anything that Detroit builds is, well, euhh, far behind.

Quality, what's that? Do a search on carcomplaints.com. Do a search on Chrysler. Their 2.7L V6 has a terrible history of seizing up after 60.000 miles. Electrical problems, where to start?

Consumer Report has interesting reports on quality. New and used. The big 3 are all in the bottom of the rankings.

If I buy a car I want something reliable for the $30-50.000 they cost nowaday, not something that gives me a hatefull intimate relationship with a dealer or manufacturer that gives me the run-around.
Example: my wife's Chrysler Sebring Convertable: 6 years old, 6ok miles, 8 major service issues (and a few little ones), all quality related: poor materials, bad design.
My old Toyota, 220k miles: Air flow meter failed at 190k. Only problem I've ever had.

Never ever a Chrysler product again, same goes for Ford and (US) GM. I know I'm not the only one.....

this brought up some interesting things kinda changed the direction of the thread as well.

but i agree with you on american car quality. i drive a lot of rentals. PT cruiser is the worst of the lot. then the taurus then its a gradual improvement up to korean cars. the corrola is a favorite, camrey even better then if you get one of those zippy 6 cyl mazdas your stoked.

i don't agree however that diesel is the end solution maybe if it runs on peanut oil. having spent time in Europe and time in Europe surfing diesel gets in everything. let me put it this way petroleum in the water is bad for animal and human. water is best clean.

im kinda biased i guess i own a corrola. it has the highest highway mileage out there. i kinda dorked out one summer and got into hypermiling. max sidewall pressure with nitrogen from the hangar and conservative driving got me 44mpg. Some people get way better.

i dont want to put you guys off but i was stoked on the high gas prices. no traffic. the drive to work was super mellow. last summer was golden. no kooks at the beach. no big r.v.'s on the coastal road. bike rides this spring and summer were some of the best in terms of traffic out here since i was in high school.

people were walking and taking the bus and riding their bikes around town. in the LA basin i saw a hipster riding a fixed gear bike across town. there was hope for the human race.

since i ride my bike around town and only drive to work: one month i spent 60 bucks on gas when we were in crisis mode. now is spend about twenty.

i would trade the 40 bucks a month in a second for the mellow days of gas approaching 5 bucks a gallon.

and why do i bring this up? the cheap gas right now is going to seriously screw any kind of reform on the part of the big 3 in terms of efficiency.

btw efficiency is the nickname for my car

 

[BushwickBill]

I said some Euro diesels don't meet US standards.



I know a guy that drives an 8-10 year old Jetta TDI...that thing regularly gets over 50mpg on the highway. Other than a slight rumble at start and a somewhat rougher idle than a gasoline car, you'd never know its a diesel.

I'd love for VW to bring their new Jetta diesel hybrid to the states...that thing is the epitome of a modern "fuel miser".



I think people are coming around on that...at least in the truck realm. The Cummins, Powerstroke, and Allison diesels offered by the Big 3 having spectacular power & torque numbers accompanied by good fuel economy. GM is also starting to look more into diesel cars, with them putting a new 2.8L diesel into the European Cadillac CTS and considering the 4.5L Duramax diesel as an option for the domestic CTS.

I'd personally LOVE to have an Opel Astra TwinTop, which gets over 47mpg with the diesel option.

i love your avitar

love that movie

all time favorite

 

[BoilerUP]

but i agree with you on american car quality. i drive a lot of rentals. PT cruiser is the worst of the lot. then the taurus then its a gradual improvement up to korean cars. the corrola is a favorite, camrey even better then if you get one of those zippy 6 cyl mazdas your stoked.

I've got to respectfully disagree with you there...I too drive a BUNCH of rental cars and the biggest POS on the road is anything that says "Kia" on the front of it; Hyundais aren't a hell of a lot better on the lower fleet car end. Its kinda sad when you hope the "compact" on the other end is a Chevy Cobalt with XM Radio...but yes, PT Cruisers are awful.

Nicest rental I've gotten was a brand-new 2008 Chevy Malibu followed by a new Saturn Aura...I was very impressed with the fit/finish, ride quality and fuel economy of both cars.

i dont want to put you guys off but i was stoked on the high gas prices. no traffic. the drive to work was super mellow. last summer was golden. no kooks at the beach. no big r.v.'s on the coastal road. bike rides this spring and summer were some of the best in terms of traffic out here since i was in high school.

You're attitude doesn't put me off, but living in a large metro is substantially different than in a medium-sized midwest town with infrequent and unreliable public transportation. What would fit you in say Chicago, LA/SD/SanFran or NYC simply doesn't work in Columbus, Indianapolis, Kansas City, etc.

i would trade the 40 bucks a month in a second for the mellow days of gas approaching 5 bucks a gallon.

Your commute must really suck then...guess I'm jaded, I live 4 minutes from the airport.

and why do i bring this up? the cheap gas right now is going to seriously screw any kind of reform on the part of the big 3 in terms of efficiency.

I seriously doubt it...even ex-'tarded pilots know these fuel/oil prices are only due to the global recession and won't last.

 

[stupidpilot]

Europe heavily subsidizes diesel and gives citizens tax breaks for buying a diesel car. That is one of the many reasons diesels are more popular across the pond. With diesel here much more expensive than regular, along with the extra cost up front, there really is no incentive to buy one. You'd have to drive one around 200k miles just to break even.

 

[metrodriver]

quote from Euroweenie:

Diesel is cheaper, and you go a lot longer on a litre (or gallon) than using petrol. Diesel also offers a vast torque advantage, and since they rotate at lower rpms, are also less noisy. The purchase price is a bit higher, but that's recuperated if you drive more than around 15K KM (or just short of 10K miles) a year.

Stupidpilot: diesel in europe is not heavily subsidized.
The fuel is simply a bit cheaper to make. Road taxes are higher for diesel in some countries, but the vastly higher mpg numbers win back the difference.

Bushwickbill: ANY kind of petroleum product in water is bad

 

[Raskal]

Europe heavily subsidizes diesel and gives citizens tax breaks for buying a diesel car. That is one of the many reasons diesels are more popular across the pond. With diesel here much more expensive than regular, along with the extra cost up front, there really is no incentive to buy one. You'd have to drive one around 200k miles just to break even.

It's not heavily subsidized in the EU. Diesel is cheaper to refine, it's the same here but our refineries are set up for around 15% diesel creating less supply.

Diesel is also considerably more efficient burning at a lower compression with more energy released per burn than gasoline.

Now to the most promising thing of all, bio diesel. Currently there is a lot of research in algae growth to use for diesel. No oil needed, the algae creates its own. Of course fuel can be made from many sources (vegetable oil is an example).

 

[Hand Commander]

I fully agree with bushwick. I'm totally content paying 5 bucks a gallon for auto gas. Aviation fuel and any other commercial transportation fuel should be the only ones getting a price break. Having a car for personal use IS A LUXURY. Unfortunately most of the US has been built with the notion that everyone will have a car and driving is an everyday part of life. Suburbs, drive thru's, outlet malls, massive freeways to accomodate mass commuters. I refuse to waste time sitting in traffic everyday. I can't really think of a more unproductive use of time and resources. I'm fortunate enough to live in PDX. Great public transportation, super bike friendly (single speeds and fixies with no brakes seem to be all the rage, still haven't figured that one out), old school neighborhoods that have everything you need within walking distance. And when I do drive to work, I live 8 mins from the hangar. I know its not like PDX everywhere but hopefully people will continue to evalute their energy consumption while fuel prices are on the decline. American auto makers deserve whatever is coming their way right now in my opinion. Its sucks for the thousands of skilled laborers and I think the scrutiny of corporate jet usage by executives from congress is pathetic, but they have chosen for decades to make crappy vehicles with poor gas mileage. I agree european cars are the way to go. The vw tdi is great. Doesn't drive like the old diesels. Plenty of torque, no lag, and quiet. Has been available in the US for a decade.

 

[BoilerUP]

The US exports the majority of their refined diesel to Europe; Europe exports the majority of their refined gasoline to the US.

 

[Regul8r]

Define "Crappy" Vehicle

2008 IQS Nameplate Rankings (Problems per 100 Vehicles)

Toyota-104
Mercury-109
Honda-110
Ford-112
Cadillac-113
Chevy-113
Pontiac-114
Lincoln-115
Buick-118
INDUSTRY AVERAGE-118

Best-Porsche-87
Worst-JEEP-167

Certainly, Mopar builds a Crappy vehicle. But for the most part, Ford and GM are better than industry average...and the trend for the past years is a positively improving one. This isn't because GM or Ford build a "crappy" vehicle...many people are still entrenched with that stigma created in the 70s and 80s...all to Honda and Toyota's benefit. Kind of like SWA being the "lowest" fare around. I would put this more on Ford and GM not really setting themselves apart from the industry and continually producing bland vehicles.





http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf/2008063.pdf

 

[Hand Commander]

Sorry, I should clarify. "Crappy" is a matter of opinion, mostly toward styling and handling. I'm biased. I did quality control for 3 years at an Audi, Volkswagen, Porsche dealership. American cars have never appealed to me. I've always liked Audi/VW's and I know they don't exactly have a good reputation. The only american car I would ever buy would be one of these www.sportsmobile.com. Diesel of course. Thanks for the info.