for yall in South Florida

[Vladimir Lenin]

If you choose to believe, you actually lose nothing if the Bible is wrong, in terms of a good and happy life in this sack of flesh.

If you choose to not believe, you can lose everything if the Bible is right. Which is better: win-win or lose-lose?

Pretty interesting enigma, isn't it?

how am I loosing nothing? I can name quite a few things (off-line) that I would loose had I been a believer of any of the numerous schemes

and come to think of it, there's gotta be good in hell, otherwise how would they know what bad is?

 

[Timebuilder]

Hmm.

Let's see. As a believer, you follow proven guidance for life, enjoy the company of fellow believers, avoiding things which are dangerous, demeaning and detrimental to a healthy, organized lifestyle. Terrible.

How is there any good in hell? You've lost me there, my friend, along with my willingness to engage in a simple baiting game, rather than an honest inquiry where I help answer real questions.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Okay been away for a little while so here are some inputs. First of all Xtream God you asked who created God:

so who created god?

God (the one of the Bible) claims to be infinite. That means there is no beginning and thus no need for a creator. No leap of faith here just simple mathematics proves that this can happen.

Second you asked:

oh, and how do you know bible was/is the word of god? and not just a collection of old pagan fables, put forth by a street magician, looking for a quick buck?

First of all if I was trying to make a quick buck the last thing I would compose in doing so would be the message of the Bible. As you can see it is not a very accepted “story.”
Anyways that’s just me, here are some facts:
The Bible is the most accurate book we have of the ancient world. It contains 5686 handwritten Greek NT Manuscripts (compared to less then 20 for most other books of ancient times.) The NT is more accurately copied then any other book (Homer is 95% accurate; Mahabharata is only 90% accurate. The New Testament is 99% accurate.
The Bible contains 66 different books written by 40 different authors on three separate continents of the world over 1000’s of years and each book is woven together perfectly with no flaws or contradictions but loads of confirmations and affirmations. (communication wasn’t all that good back then {no internet} so a likely conclusion is that it was written by one author, “The Spirit of God”)
Some archeological discoveries:
1) The Ebla tablets (1975) - These affirm the accuracy and antiquity of the early part of Genesis.
2) Excavations at Jericho (1930-1936) revealed the city's walls fell outward as the Bible says.
3) The Dead Sea scrolls (1947)-confirms the accuracy of transmission of Old Testament writings.
4)1990 the bones of Joseph Caiaphas were found.
Some inscriptions:
1)"Pontius Pilate, Perfect of Judea" found in Caesarea in 1961.
2)"Lysanis" of Luke 3:1 found near Damascus, dated 14-29 A.D.
3)"Erastus" of Romans 16:23 found in Corinth in 1929
4)"Synagogue of the Hebrews" (Acts 18:47) found over doorway in Corinth
***Also Luke named 32 countries, 54 cities, and hundreds of detail without making a single error

Some quotes:

-Jewish archeologist Nelson Glueck "no archeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference (Rivers in the desert: History of Negev, 31)

-US News and World Report "In extraordinary ways modern archeology has affirmed the historical core of the Old and New Testaments-corroborating key portions of the stories of Israel’s patriarchs."

Some secular writings that corroborate the Bible
1) Jesus lived during the time of Tiberius Caesar.
2) He was wonder worker
3) Had a brother named James
4) Was crucified under Pontius Pilate
5) An eclipse and earthquake occurred when he died.
6) He was crucified on the eve of Passover
6) His disciples believed He rose from the dead.
8) His disciples were willing to die for their beliefs.
9) Christianity spread rapidly as far as Rome
10) His disciples denied Roman gods and worshiped Jesus as God.

(If you want some more or different factors that suggest the validity of the Bible let me know because there are plenty more. The bottom line is that if you disregard the Bible as being creditable and accurate then you can not make a fare assumption of any part of history you did not physically see.

being empirical, it is awfully hard to just blindly accept this experiment, because if it fails, I would have missed a life, and I just can't take that chance

This was my hardest thing to accept. I know what you mean about thinking you have to give everything up and be all different. I wasn't always a Christian nor was I raised in a Christian household (until my teen years.) I had a life to live. But when you find out that the life you are living isn't all that great and has no hope or anything to look forward to you realize you were wrong. Life apart from God will never be right. We all have a spiritual hole in our heart and some choose to fill it with ungodly stimulation while others choose to fill it with what it was made for, God. That whole was designed to be filled by God's spirit and when you let that fill your heart you have received such a fulfillment. It's not a hard life to live as a Christian. Sure there are bumpy days but when you feel received and loved by the maker and creator of the universe it does something to you. It’s not about any work or rules or giving money or anything other then accepting the fact that Jesus redeemed you and an open channel exists where you are able to talk to God. He is patient with anyone. Heck I was still stuck to some addictions when I first accepted Jesus, but he will help you let go of the poisonous junk. Come as you are, it requires faith to choose God (but lets face it everyone has the same element of faith it is just where they direct it that forms the problem.) I will pray that you find the way. I ask in the most sincere loving respectful way possible--tonight starting around 6:30 click on the Calvary web cam link. They are a Bible believing church that preaches truth. (and no they don't take any offerings nor do they have a formal membership.) Seek and you shall find!
God bless my friend!
-Gary-

 

[TurboS7]

Hey Bob is teaching on Revelation, neat message for all to hear. Turn in at Calvaryftl.org-enjoy, I'll be in the front row......

 

[fLYbUDDY]

QUOTE]Logic? is there any? NO....[/QUOTE]

Where is your logic and science? You make no sense by even trying to make sense out of what I am saying. Some guys stoned? Sounds like your professor at that university. How logical is it that you think we evolved from nothingness? Imagine that, intelligent life coming from non-intelligent life. Yeah that happens all the time. In fact given the complexity of life it would be "logical" to assume (by you and your cohorts) that the skywriting crash-proof saw was just a cloud that evolved from some other simpler clouds. Life is just as complex and finely detailed as skywriting (actually more.) So why should crash-proof assume someone even wrote that and it wasn't just some wind and updrafts? My point is obviously how you are assuming something based on total non-sense. Here you want some science. We can start with the anthropic principal which proves the complexity of life.
1) Oxygen comprises 21 % of the atmosphere. If it were 25%, fires would erupt, if 15 %, human beings would suffocate.
2) If the gravitational force were altered by 1 part in 1040, the sun would not exist, and the moon would crash into earth or sheer off into space (Heeren, 196). If the centrifugal force of planetary movements did not precisely balance the gravitational forces, nothing could be held in orbit around the sun.
4) If the universe was expanding at a rate one millionth more slowly than it is, the temperature on earth would be 10,000 degrees C (Heeren, 185)
5) The average distance between stars in our galaxy of 100 billion stars is 30 trillion miles. If that distance was altered slightly orbits would become erratic, and there would be extreme temperature variations on earth.
6) Any of the laws of physics can be described as a function of the velocity of light (now defined as 186,282 miles a second). Even a slight variation in the speed of light would alter the other constants and preclude the possibility of life on earth (Ross, 126).
7) If Jupiter was not in its current orbit, we would be bombarded by space material. Jupiter’s gravitational field acts as a cosmic vacuum cleaner, attracting asteroids and comets that would otherwise strike earth. (Heeren, 196)
8) If the thickness of the earth's crust was greater, too much oxygen would be transferred to the crust to support life. If it were thinner, volcanic and tectonic activity would make life unattainable. (Ross, 130)
9) If the rotation of the earth took longer then 24 hours, temperatures would be too great between night and day. If the rotation period was shorter, atmospheric wind velocities would be too great.
10) Surface temperature differences would be too great if the axis of the earth were altered slightly.
11) If the atmospheric discharge rate (lightning strikes) was more there would be too much fire destruction; if it were less, there would be too little nitrogen fixing in the soil.
12) If there were more seismic activity, much life would be lost. If there was less, nutrients on the ocean floors and in river runoff would not be cycled back to the continents through tectonic uplift.

.....and we can keep going!

(Sources—F. Heeren “Show me God,” H. Ross “The Fingerprints of God,” N. Geisler “12 Points That Prove Christianity)

The anthropic principal is a scientific way that clearly shows the complexity of life. Applying your logic to the precision needed for life to exist it should imply it is possible that mother nature can create some pretty "smart" inventions. As a matter of fact it would probably be logical to assume (based on your logic) that a 747 was the result of a tornado going through a warehouse full of metal. I just don't get where you kinds of people get your great faith from? We can prove a theistically (Christian) God to a very high probability (using “science” of course.) We can prove it to be more likely then anything else but it still wouldn't be a 100% proof. The rest of the proof (that can in fact create a 100% proof) is determined on a personal level. When someone who lets God work in their life sees things that science could never even come close to explaining you truly see the fingerprint of God. So believe what you want. Put your faith in a guy at a university (once again). But I choose the word of god. Not because I believe but because I know!

Oh and another thing about your social evolution (since you can't figure out what I already said I will try in simpler terms) theory (which by the way also included absolutely no science) assumes that it is correct, which questions the validity of your argument. Well this assumption can not be true based on the theory itself. It is self-defeating. Forget about God and lets assume your theory is correct that traveling back in time would deem you brilliant and in the future you would lacking. Well then if it was a social evolutionary process (which I agree with you about science and other religions {not Christianity} on a micro level of course.) Then it has a probability for era. See if you are assuming Christianity is just an evolved religion then you also must assume the same about your “scientific” findings and thus they are just as subject to distortion and inaccuracy based on previous generation’s findings as Christianity would be. Now of course all that was assuming Christianity was on the same time dimension as your socially evolving culture. I suggest (as does the Word of God) that it is not. See if you went back 1000s of years ago it would still be the issue of the same God (Yahweh) but it would be a different discussion we would be having. See the science I listed above would (at least some of the findings) not yet been discover. So instead of breaking down God’s existence on a scientific level we would be doing it on Scriptural level and possibly evaluating the Word as opposed to other false religions or unbelief in God. See I agree that society evolves micro-ally. It may have been communicated from God differently through our timeline of history (and future), but Christianity has always been. In other words (and your “theory” proves it) the only thing that evolved in this whole picture is societies response to God. See Christianity deals with an eternal spectrum. Here is a simple analogy: Our world (that we now live in) exists in an isolated “bubble” that floats within eternity (where God exists.) Once our bubble pops (as it really will someday) we will be blanketed in the realm of eternity. It illustrates how in this bubble microevolution happens (cultures change, skin color is different, ect…) but once the bubble pops we are now in the eternal that has always been (as God put it I am the great I am.) Hope this clears it up for you about what I already said.
-Gary-

 

[fLYbUDDY]

And finally a response for timebuilder. I respectfully disagree that there is no proof. The Bible commands us to have an answer for our faith (see 1 Peter 3:15) and also it says come now and let us reason (see Acts 17:16-17) I know what you mean though. It requires faith to truly accept His Word as reality. But my concern is that it is actually more provable then people think and there is sufficient evidence to prove the Bible, God, and Jesus just as much as (actually a lot more then) the other (ridiculous) myths, atheistic philosophies, and other false religions. I’m not saying you are wrong about explaining the necessary faith involved, I just want others to know there is a more rational answer then some of the other things they put there faith into. I think what it really comes down to is that even if God was 100% provable the same people who reject Him now would reject Him then. It's like that parable about the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:24-31.27:
(copied and pasted from bible.com "NLT")
"Then the rich man said, `Please, Father Abraham, send him to my father's home. 28For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them about this place of torment so they won't have to come here when they die.'
29"But Abraham said, `Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read their writings anytime they want to.'
30"The rich man replied, `No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will turn from their sins.'
31"But Abraham said, `If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.' "

God Bless!
Until the whole world hears,
-Gary

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

First off, TB, no baiting, it's just that I don't have a battery of theological knowledge to back me up, nor do I feel like cutting and pasting from Google to express myself.
Second of all, it's good to see guys like flyBuddy will go to such elaborate lengths to explain why they believe what they believe, for I certainly don't have faith strong enough in anything that would warrant such lenghty responses.
And thirdly, any narrator would use actual events to help butress the tale

 

[TurboS7]

Bob is speaking on Revelation tonight. I will be in the front row. Service starts at 1800 with Bob talking at 1830. Calvaryftl.org

 

[fLYbUDDY]

And thirdly, any narrator would use actual events to help butress the tale

?

 

[fLYbUDDY]

I'm sorry just because one book says this is the way it is; Dose not mean I have to take that way. I will be objective and study all the evidence presented before me, before coming to a conclusion. I tend to be a little bit more strong willed/minded and objective than sheep following another off a cliff, even if my luck has turned to the worst.

Here is another one of your contradictions. You say you will be objective but you won't consider the Bible's claims. Seems to me if you were truly objective you would have included on an equal field the validity of the bible along with other theories. And if what I say is not true then why do you care? I mean according to you no matter what I believe or anyone else shouldn't matter since we all go to the same place when we die. How does it affect you that I have an answer to your "intellectual proposal?" I think because deep down inside you know it is true and don't want to admit it. Just another one of my "theories."

Unlike Christianity, when the only time people care/pray is when bad things happen to them

And this is an uninformed comment. That doesn't describe Christianity it describes almost 99% of the world that rejects Christianity. When their back is up against a wall they cry out and then blame God for not hearing them.
See Isaiah 8:20
20"Check their predictions against my testimony," says the LORD. "If their predictions are different from mine, it is because there is no light or truth in them. 21My people will be led away as captives, weary and hungry. And because they are hungry, they will rage and shake their fists at heaven and curse their king and their God. 22Wherever they look, there will be trouble and anguish and dark despair. They will be thrown out into the darkness."
Nothing bad has happened to me any time lately, as a matter of fact I am at the highest point of my life (emotionally, physically, and spiritually) and the future looks even better. So my point is nothing bad is going on and I am praying /caring. In fact I am praying/caring enough for you that I truly hope you understand the Truth. I don't think I am smarter or any better then you (as a matter of fact you are probably extremely intelligent and in reality a very nice person) and I would hate to see you totally reject Him. So I have cared enough to spend part of my weekend presenting some facts for the existence of God (Christianity.) I’m not forcing you to believe anything, but when you stand before God someday it will be obvious you had opportunities and made some decisions. I hope you seize the opportunity to except him before it is too late but once again it is up to you. I mean if God could force us to love Him it wouldn't be much of a love story would it? I will pray for you. And remember the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. And yes as Paul said I agree the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing.

 

[Timebuilder]

And finally a response for timebuilder. I respectfully disagree that there is no proof.

There is "proof" for the believer, but not for the non-believer, using the standards of "man". This is because we walk by faith, and not by sight. For instance, a lost man can read 2Tim 3:16 and say that he is unconvinced, from a secular viewpoint, that the self authentication of this passage could be every bit as questionable as they judge the balance of scripture.

The only event that will open most eyes is the rapture, and even then many will be unconvinced because they won't understand the context and meaning of the event.

So, for several of us here there is proof, wonderful proof that we are following the one who is worthy. For others, there must first be an opening of the heart. Since many of the lost trust only themselves and the tactile world of logical man, only God can craft this essential event on a man by man basis.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Amen! God bless my friend!

 

[TurboS7]

I heard a joke tonight that really puts our plight as humans in perspective. Apart from Christ we are eternally seperated from Almighty God. Only Christ paid the price to justify us in front of God Amighty. Since God consist of Father Son and Holy Spirit, we God turned his back on the Son on the cross then the price has been paid. An eternal relationship and Being existance put at risk for US. That is why the wonderful verse reads: For God so loved the world that he gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send his son to the world to condem the world but that the world through Him might be saved.

In South Florida in busy traffic a lady was late moving after a green light. A businessman who had a lot to do started honking at her and making all kinds of motions with his hands. After clearing the intersection a cop pulled out and pulled him over. The cop came up and got the businessman's license and went back to check it as the businessman sat and fummed. When the officer got back the businessman wanted to know what he had done. The officer said "nothing, it was just with all those Jesus stickers and fish thing on the back of your car I thought it was stolen." We are just sinners saved by the grace of God, no diffrent than any of you guys, beggars that have found bread and are trying to tell you where it is.

 

[Typhoon1244]

This is great. First a conservative-liberal feud thread, now a revival meeting. Haven't had one of these threads in a long time!

 

[Timebuilder]

Yep!

And I've been on both sides of both issues!

 

[jayme]

You guys are a lot smarter than me, so I'm sure you have an answer for this one: Why doesn't the bible mention the dinosaurs? Keep in mind that it has been proven that dinosaurs were in existence for millions of years, and that the bible ony seems to cover the last 5 or 6 thousand.

Thanks!

 

[Typhoon1244]

Why doesn't the bible mention the dinosaurs?

I've got one: "if God is all-powerful, can he make a rock so big that he himself can't lift it?"*


*George Carlin, recovering Catholic

 

[Timebuilder]

There is a lot that has been written about the dinosaur question. I'll try and find you some references.

 

[Timebuilder]

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/

http://www.icr.org/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BDICR1

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

http://www.sixdaycreation.com/

http://www.creationevidence.org/cem...ionevidence.org/books_videos/books/L_110.html

George Carlin's question falls into a category I call "useless obstruction". People used to wonder about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. The answer is clearly "what does it matter?"

 

[Typhoon1244]

George Carlin's question falls into a category I call "useless obstruction."

Sounds like something you take Pepto Bismol for...

(Sorry for interrupting. Just having fun. Please go on.)