for yall in South Florida

[Timebuilder]

As a recovering Catholic (many of them attend my church) George is suffering from a crisis of faith. He has compared what he thinks God should be to what he thinks God is, and has decided that God has come up short. This isn't surprising, since an entire structure of men has been built up between himself and God, almost guaranteeing that he won't have a personal relationship with Him in the manner that he wants.

George puts his faith in what he can conceive, and since he can't put God in a convenient "box", as he tries to do with his "rock" question, he decides that God is a creation of Man, and not the other way around.

 

[TurboS7]

Job was the first book written in the Bible:

Job 40:15 says,"Look now at the behemoth,"which I made along with you(which blows the million years theory to you know where)
He eats grass like an ox.See now the strength in his hips, and his power is in the stomach muscles. He moves his tail like a cedar, the sinews of his thighs are tightly knit. His bones aae like beams of bronze, his ribs like bars of iron. he is the first of the ways of God.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

I've got one: "if God is all-powerful, can he make a rock so big that he himself can't lift it?"*

Another George carlininan. Its funny how people will listen to (a not even that funny imho) comedian and they have the answers. I know you were probably just joking around for the heck of it and in reality don't believe that but I’m sure there are some on this board that do. And who knows maybe you’re serious. That would be almost as funny as what Styles bases his philosophy on. What's next, someone bringing up what they saw on the discovery or history channel about religion and also have it all figured out?

Why doesn't the bible mention the dinosaurs? Keep in mind that it has been proven that dinosaurs were in existence for millions of years, and that the bible only seems to cover the last 5 or 6 thousand.

Timebuilder is right there is a lot of info on this. There is much debate (among Christian scholars and believers) as to how old the earth is. It really doesn't matter either way it doesn't do anything to credit or discredit the validity of the bible. So technically it is not that the bible has just covered the last 5 or 6 thousand years, it has covered the beginning through the end (future.) We can honestly say that carbon dating has been proven to be highly inaccurate and flawed and is therefore minimally reliable. It is also safe to say that it is possible that the proof of the earth being that old is not an accepted fact, and it has a chance of being wrong. Even though it wouldn't matter since the Bible doesn't specifically mention how old it is. Before I say anything about the dinosaurs it probably should be made known how completely inaccurate and skewed the fossil record has been made in attempt to try and prove evolution. Just wanted to bring that to light since it is slightly relevant to our understanding of dinosaurs. I'll give you what my conclusion is and hopefully Timebuilder will have some good references for you (if not I’ll be happy to get you some.) First does it (like the age of the earth) matter? Just because the Bible doesn't directly talk about them doesn't mean anything. It's not like it says they never existed. Also in the book of Job there is mention of a creature that describes what appears to be a dinosaur:

Job 40:15-24
15"Look now at the behemoth,[1] which I made along with you;
He eats grass like an ox.
16See now, his strength is in his hips,
And his power is in his stomach muscles.
17He moves his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit.
18His bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.
19He is the first of the ways of God;
Only He who made him can bring near His sword.
20Surely the mountains yield food for him,
And all the beasts of the field play there.
21He lies under the lotus trees,
In a covert of reeds and marsh.
22The lotus trees cover him with their shade;
The willows by the brook surround him.
23Indeed the river may rage,
Yet he is not disturbed;
He is confident, though the Jordan gushes into his mouth,
24Though he takes it in his eyes,
Or one pierces his nose with a snare.

I believe there are also some other areas that imply a "dinosaur" like creature. I'll admit that this is not an area I’m an expert on. I never was really big into the dinosaur thing. Like I said it doesn't matter either way. Hope that helps answer your very good question!
God Bless,
-Gary-

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Looks like as i was typing Timebuilder and TurboS7 beat me too it.

BTW--Bob Barnes was great tonight Turbo!

 

[Timebuilder]

If you want to read about some unusual "beasts" in the Bible, then read the book of Ezekiel.

"As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures."
(Ezek 1:13)

 

[Typhoon1244]

Another George carlininan. Its funny how people will listen to (a not even that funny imho) comedian and they have the answers.

Of course George is not funny...to anyone who has blind faith in whatever religion they've chosen to follow. But if you agree with his central premise that any human being who claims to understand "God" is deluding himself, then he's very funny indeed!


But all that aside, yes, my goal was humor...not serious religious debate.

 

[jayme]

Wow! You guys are quick!

Timebuilder: Thanks for the links. Here's my reaction after reading them.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/ This guy proposes that dinosaurs DID exist, but that carbon dating is wrong and the dinosaurs were around just a few thousand years ago. Here's my problem: There are tens of thousands of fossils that have been found, yet there is only this one passage in the bible about them, and that this behemoth was eating grass like an ox. WTF? No tyranosaurus rex stories?

http://www.icr.org/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BDICR1 This was a link to a page that would allow me to order a book that would answer this question. I was hoping somebody on this board could give me the short version for free. Thanks anyway.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/ From the article discussing the age of dinosaur bones: "The Bible’s account of the true history of the world makes it clear that no fossil can be more than a few thousand years old." The problem with this? IT ASSUMES THE CONCLUSION, THEN USES THAT CONCLUSION IN THE PROOF!

http://www.sixdaycreation.com/ This author quotes about 20 or 30 instances of the words "dragon" "leviathon" and "behemoth". He says "References to Dragons (probably Dinosaurs). " Problem: He's assuming things. Maybe the author of that part of the bible really means "A big fire-breathing, flying lizard." We don't know, and since we can't ask God what he really meant, we'll just have to take it literally as "dragon." I personaly think "dragon" is used as a generic term for a real nasty creature that you don't want to meet.

http://www.creationevidence.org/cem...ionevidence.org/books_videos/books/L_110.html
This site says"DAY 6--[Gen.1:24-25]--Making of dinosaurs and other land creatures, divided among the cattle (Hebrew "behemah," includes all quadrupedal, hoofed/blunt-toed ungulates), beasts of the earth (bipedal/quadrupedal, talon-toed), and creeping things (quadrupedal/multi-legged ground crawlers)."

The stuff in parentheses are translations directly from Hebrew, but the rest is this author's INTERPRETATION. Again, assumptions are being made. This verse may really be talking about CATTLE.

My point: These people have already decided what they believe, and are using the bible and a little science to try to prove they are right. I don't think you can go into an objective debate with a conclusion already made up in your head.

I was watching the history channel the other day and saw this story about the suicide bombers in Israel. Why were they doing what they were doing? Because they "knew", not just believed, that they would go to "paradise" when they died doing what God wanted them to do. That is an example of "knowing" that you are right, along with a bunch of desperation.

This is a great debate. Let's keep it going!

Fire away.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Thanks for the links. Here's my reaction after reading them.

Well as for the first link just because it doesn't mention the t-rex doesn't mean it is not true. Here is my question. Did it really matter to us about our whole spiritual purpose that dinosaurs existed? Not at all. There is no way. The passage doesn't directly say a dinosaur but it does imply a creature very similar to those big grass eating dinosaurs.

As for the dragon thing. We know the Chinese culture has stories and myths about dragon existence. In a way if a t-rex was fire-breathing it would be a pretty similar thing as a dragon (as was described by the Chinese.) How could it be fire breathing? Simple, we know that it is possible that butane could have existed in the make-up of their exhale so now all you need is a spark. I think it is quite possible that compounds in the teeth could have existed that could create a spark when they contacted each other (like when you strike two stones together.) It is definitely possible. Just as possible as it not being true because one thing the bones won't allow us to do is understand the chemical compounds found in the dinosaurs make-up (other then that which is in the bones.) The only true source (none assuming) would be someone who actually saw it as it happened back then. Once again it doesn't matter. I don't understand how it affects the validity of the Bible?

The fossil record? Hahahaha are you serious? Find one reliable scientific source that is to prove the years concluded from testing are accurate. You can't find them. In fact they are always changing. I'm not saying the earth isn't as old as millions of years (nor is the Bible.) We simply don't know and can only assume (that goes for the Christian and non-Christian.) We have not developed an accurate method to measure it by.

And as far as assuming things, well so is anyone that doesn't have the ability to prove 100% the age of the earth. I still don't know why it matters. The Bible never said how old it was. Sometimes I think Christians can get dividing among themselves on this issue and should focus more on the important stuff. Nonetheless whoever is drawing the conclusion is assuming so.

Now as far as the author of the Bible "assuming.” Well you are assuming that the Bible was inspired by man's intellect. I am concluding based on the accuracy of the Word and what the Word claims to be that it was merely written by man but 100% inspired by the spirit of God. Man wasn't aloud to comment they just wrote. That is what went nutty with the Islam. See Mohammad’s "theory" is based on Judeo-Christian perspective, except he commented on it. He was in a cave one night and thought he saw a demon. Later he was convinced it was an angel and had this new revelation from God. The problem was no one in Mecca would follow his new "cult" of a religion. Then he started killing people until they would follow him. Conquer by the sword. And that's what the true Muslim is doing today. There is no such thing as peaceful Islam. It preaches to kill the infidels wherever you may find them. The only reason we don't see it with all Muslims is simply because they don't take their faith seriously (like some Christians.) Islam is nothing more then a distorted cult that formed out of Judeo-Christian principals. It's no different from the rest of the angle-seeing revealing people. So why would they blow themselves up in the name of religion. Because they know? Or they think they know? I suggest they only think they know (if that.) They are kept so oppressed by the leaders that you would probably want the opportunity to go out early as hero with a direct entry into "heaven." Islam contradicts itself severely and plus you have only on writer. The Bible was composed of 66 different books with 40 different writers on 3 separate continents over thousands of years and it all flows together perfectly throughout. In Islam you have one writer with no others to validate or contradict itself. However Muhammad did a good job of contradicting himself when he admitted he wasn't perfect but Jesus was. Remember mass killings like that are evil. And there are a lot of people that will take evil over righteousness any day. And another problem with the suicide bombers about them “knowing." They are like Jehovah Witness, except it is even worse. The Jehovah Witness won't allow the followers to go to any other churches and see what they are saying. The Muslim countries will not only not let you go explore other alternatives, they will kill you for doing so. So these people are basing there "knowledge" on one side of the coin. Christianity has nothing to hide. No one forces you to accept (and if they do they are not a true Christian.) God has missionaries in those Muslim countries spreading his word (they are seriously risking there life.) Those that will believe (he already knows about) he will draw to the underground churches where they will find Him. The others with the harden hearts are being used as vessels of wrath. This also indicates a proof about the Bible. For Israel was God's chosen people but they rejected the Word and in his Word we are told that the Lord will use other nations to get the attention of Israel. Also the evil behind it all lies in that Satan hates Israel (as the Bible tells us) and therefore inspires evil upon it. So would that be like God causing evil to fall upon Israel, you might ask. Not at all. Israel’s rejection has forced God to take his hand off her (for now.) So now evil has a chance to run it's course and hopefully they will realize only God can help them. And don't worry their are plenty of Jews for Jesus and they are still his chosen people, however those that wish to have no part with Him He is allowing so. This is similar to what happens to any person who rejects God. Right now if you know it or not God's character can be found here on earth (not displaced evenly of course.) But when a person dies and goes to hell it's not like God is down there spanking them for eternity. Quite the opposite they are simply isolated from God and his nature and evil can run rampant on them. Going back to Israel though it's kind of funny how the prophesy about Israel becoming a nation came true. It was laughed about a while back and look at what happened. There are hundreds of prophesies (legitimate ones) found in the Word. Another good indication of its authority. Hope this helps! God bless!

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

humans did not co-exist with dinosaurs ( i just wanted to point that out)

it wasn't until two centuries ago that we, as humans, started to rationalize on their existence

vague references in the bible are just that, vague, a product of modern interpretation. I am sure it meant something else in the middle ages

 

[fLYbUDDY]

humans did not co-exist with dinosaurs ( i just wanted to point that out)

Yeah how do you know? I think the science nerds call them "cave men." It is quite possible that humans did exist with the dinosaurs.

it wasn't until two centuries ago that we, as humans, started to rationalize on their existence

Thanks for helping to prove more of the Bible's accuracy!
If Job was written before the middle ages and it wasn't till after the middle ages that dinosaurs were rationalized then how did he know? How would a creature that describes a dinosaur (grass eating type at least) be able to be written about if it didn't really exist? Or was he a real character that existed at the time of the dinosaurs?
It's like when in Isaiah 40:22

22It is God who sits above the circle of the earth. The people below must seem to him like grasshoppers! He is the one who spreads out the heavens like a curtain and makes his tent from them.

How did Isaiah know it was a circle? That was from the Old Testament books. That is ancient Hebrew talking. I thought it was only until recently that they discovered the earth was a circle. Or could it be so precise that Isaiah really was a prophet of God and God spoke through him to the people of his day as well as the people of today. See what I mean it has always been. Science is just starting to understand the simpler things about God (and sometimes they even miss that.) And now science has proven that it is possible that that kind of creature can exist(dinosaur.) You are correct back then it probably was something else. They didn't have the confirmation that it existed nor the confirmation that it didn't so they argued the existence of God based on myths and stories they created. The Word of God has never changed (nor will it) but society's answer (those that don't believe) has changed. It is another example of how "Styles's" theory on social evolution in fact helps support the truth of the Word. Remember what Proverbs says:

Proverbs 16:25
25There is a path before each person that seems right, but it ends in death.

So stop exchanging truth for a lie just because it seems right that it can't be true! You still have a chance and guess what I don't have to know and know one else on this board has to know (at least here on earth) just you and God. Get this straight and everything else will follow. Come drink from the source of living water and never thirst again. God Bless you! Any other questions please feel free to inquire.
-Gary-

 

[BlueCanoe]

Pay attention!!!

Listen!!! The original post has NOTHING to do with religon you freaks. He wanted to know how someone got up to 10k in the busy SE Florida airspace.

However, it should be noted that without dinosaurs, none of us would be pilots.

PS I hope he watches out for those of us who do this for a living doing well over 250 KIAS at 10,000 MSL.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

ok, Buddy, two things for you

carbon dating and interpration of different things by different people

carbon dating proved that dinos and SPEAKING and WRITING or even DRAWING ON CAVE WALLS people did not co-exist

and I am sure that circle meant a flat circle in the middle ages, when people were being burned at the stake for saying otherwise

but of course, now it's interpreted as round Earth

go pull some more Google dogma for us

 

[fLYbUDDY]

carbon dating proved that dinos and SPEAKING and WRITING or even DRAWING ON CAVE WALLS people did not co-exist

Exactly carbon dating is inaccurate. That is my point. Not sure what yours is since you can not prove that dinosaurs and humans did not exist together. How does carbon dating prove that?

and I am sure that circle meant a flat circle in the middle ages, when people were being burned at the stake for saying otherwise

And you could be right it could be a flat circle but that is just as probable as it being a hemispherical circle. I didn't suggest that it absolutely proves anything it just gives strong evidence that it is valid. You can conclude what you want as you already have.

BTW--None of what I posted was a result of searching through Goggle. Goggle sucks! Remember my poll?
You are the one who claimed to receive data through Google. Remember like yesterday or something?

First off, TB, no baiting, it's just that I don't have a battery of theological knowledge to back me up, nor do I feel like cutting and pasting from Google to express myself.

What I have taken the time to share with you has been accumulated over several years of my personal search for truth. The only difference is I draw rational conclusions and you are drawing conclusions that make you feel good. Sometimes I don't want the Bible to be true. I would like it to say something else, but that's not up to me. So once again put your trust in yourself for I trust God, eventhough it is hard for me to accept the fact of what it says about an unbeliever’s final destiny. Some would change the meaning/context of what the text says (in their own minds) some would try to disprove its validity but that doesn't change the truth of the matter.
Give up XtreamGod say "uncle" actually say "Jesus!"

 

[Timebuilder]

However, it should be noted that without dinosaurs, none of us would be pilots.

Yes, and it shows me that God has provided well for us in this time, using the remains of His creation from an earlier time. We should be drilling in Alaska for more dino remains!

Some things never change.

A thread mentions a skywriter who has a Biblical message.

Someone asks a question or two.

Some other people attempt to satisfy the seeker with an answer.

Others become snide and dismissive. Without the "proof" that they demand, the become contentious and mean spirited.

And the beat goes on...

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

carbon dating isn't accurate?

even if dinos did live with primates ( once again, ) there would be no way for us to know, because humans couldn't communicate, let alone write recollections until about 20K years ago
...by which time T-Rex was gas in my 172...

 

[kwb13]

If you were looking in the sky today, we were skywriting up and down from MIA to Boca but only writing "US Brick" and a bunch of "I's". We fly at 10,500 ft. in Grumman Tiger's (5). Keep an eye out in the afternoons and on the weekends, it looks pretty cool from the ground (I guess).

 

[fLYbUDDY]

even if dinos did live with primates ( once again, ) there would be no way for us to know, because humans couldn't communicate, let alone write recollections until about 20K years ago

And that is my point (once again) . If no one could write about it until recently and it was written about thousands of years ago then I guess they were there when it happened and are telling the truth. Otherwise I'll admit I do not follow your argument (if you are saying something else.) Get it?

 

[BlueCanoe]

Just noticed this

Anybody else notice that fLyBuddy has ATC wannabe in his profile? No wonder he's smarter than anyone!!!

 

[Herman Bloom]

Religious fundamentalism might be the most dangerous force on earth. It tends to look and even feel benign (even from the inside), but it always, always creates suffering in the end.

Oh yeah, evolution is as much a scietific "fact" as any other of the so-called "laws" of science. Tons of evidence. If you ask me, I think evolution is the most convinceing evidence of the existence of God. But you're not asking me, are you. Just because something requires more insight than you're capable of mustering doesn't make it wrong, and certainly does not make it evil.

Maybe I'm wrong. But at least I'm still searching.

 

[jayme]

FlybUDDY Says:

"What I have taken the time to share with you has been accumulated over several years of my personal search for truth. The only difference is I draw rational conclusions and you are drawing conclusions that make you feel good. "

Jayme Says: Are you LISTENING TO YOURSELF?!? Have you even considered the possibility that you are only looking for evidence that proves you are right? Please tell me, this stuff about carbon dating being inaccurate: Have you ever read that from a source that is NOT biased towards Christianity?

Respectfully,
Jayme