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Maybe I'm wrong. But at least I'm still searching

Keep searching, we shall all find out someday. See the thing is you can't 100% prove anything (I know we have been through this already but....) All I'm suggesting is that you can compare on a very high level the proof that Christianity is really the right way. Now I didn't say 100% but a high level (probably much higher) as compared to the other suggestions. The only difference that completes the equation of God is the interment personal change that happens within. Nothing can prove that other then God's promise. He has worked so mightily in my life (and I'm sure others can testify) that I know He is real. That is what completes the equation. Christianity (the Bible) explains things that nothing else could. It has the power to heal relationships, cure depression (as well as other physical and physiological problems.) It has turned people from addictions and the list goes on and on. See my faith is complete with God. The majority of the world puts there faith into other schools of thought and then in order to even get up the next day they are relying on something temporal to stimulate them enough to get them through the day whether money, drugs, intelligence, eating, sex, hobbies and just about everything else that is out there (not that there is anything wrong with some and yes I said SOME) of those things when in the right context, it's just that they were never ment to be your only source of pleasure or ability to coop with life. Because today is ending and when tomorrow comes you need to rely on that source to fill you once again. Why not let God fill you? He does so only one time and it lasts an eternity. See the best pleasure I have ever experienced in the world is knowing I am doing what He created me (and everyone else) for, "glorifying the Lord." Life has never been better. And I am trying to share it with you. Go ahead and drink from the pleasures of this world and seek an answer from the "wise" of this world. I have already done all that and I can say it really wasn't worth it. Some stuff even left scares on my heart. So sorry for trying to spare you. guess some people won't believe you when you say "to be burned by fire really hurts," as you stand before them with a third-degree burn on your hand. I hope you figure it out before it is too late my friend!
May God Bless you on your journey for the truth. "For if you seek you shall find" (so if your truly seeking I'm not worried, but I am worried you are not truly seeking and are just trying find an alternative to the Truth.)
 
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Please tell me, this stuff about carbon dating being inaccurate: Have you ever read that from a source that is NOT biased towards Christianity?

Well, you generally have two choices: to read something that is "biased toward Christianity" or you caan read something that is "biased against Christianity".

So, you read both, and you find in favor of the claim that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God", if you are a believer.

I am far more trusting of God being right than a publish-or-perish academic type, so don't think that carbon dating is a big worry right now. :)
 
Jayme Says: Are you LISTENING TO YOURSELF?!? Have you even considered the possibility that you are only looking for evidence that proves you are right? Please tell me, this stuff about carbon dating being inaccurate: Have you ever read that from a source that is NOT biased towards Christianity?

Heck no! I was actually trying to do it my way and not for a second did I think or want the Bible to be true. I was not raised in a Christian home as kid and pretty much did what I felt like. Then I started to ponder it’s truth. I started to search the possibility of what life was all about and stuff. Eventually the more you seek the more you find. That is like that book written by the lawyer (I think that was his job) who set out to disprove Christianity and couldn't. The book starts with the words "the book that refused to be written." He set out to write a book about how wrong Christianity was. He eventually concluded it wasn't just an opinion he had that Christianity was wrong but that he was in fact wrong. It is called the "Case for Christ." If you are sincere I will track it down for you and send it to you for free. Just pm me with your info. Of course only if you want. I could understand a sensitivity not wanting to give out your address or PO Box in fear someone is going to load you down with junk (which I won’t of course send you anything other then the book.) So don’t think I am trying to press it upon you or anything. I just want to help you if help is what you want. If anything though try to get a copy of the book, it will help you understand some of the really tough questions Christianity has faced and you may be wondering yourself. I would imagine it is available through Amazon or borders or wherever and can’t be all that expensive. There are tons of other respectable men (and women) who have done the same in search of an answer. C.S. Lewis is a good example:

C.S Lewis-"You cannot go on 'explaining away' forever: you will find that you have explained explanation itself away." Moreover, "you cannot go on 'seeing through' things forever." Consequentially, "it is no use trying to 'see through' first principals. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent." But, "to 'see through' all things is the same as not to see." - (Lewis, "Miracles" 23)
He wasn’t always a Christian either!

Also see the quote by Robert Jastrow in my signature. Written by Jastrow as an atheist. Seek and you shall find. The answer is out there, you just have to really want to find it and be willing to accept it when you do. God Bless!
-Gary-
 
I am a Christian. And I believe that anyone who takes the Bible literally (and by that I mean WORD FOR WORD i.e., Jonah was REALLY swallowed and survived in the belly of a whale; the world was REALLY created in 7 days; etc) is missing the point. But it's just my opinion. The really important thing, perhaps, is that we understand the point of the story. Jonah was running from God and from his calling, so to speak.

I stand by my belief in the inherent danger of fundamentalism. You should read some CS Lewis if you haven't. I would suggest "Mere Christianity". There's a guy who has approched "faith" intellectually. Look into it.
 
Herman, you touch on an entire area of interpretation of scripture that people have been arguing about, uselessly, for many centuries.

Questions like "what kind of whale was it?" are typical stumbling blocks for many people. After all, in our modern world, we have several kinds of "whales", including nuclear powered ones, that "swallow" people for six months at a time. :)

Just like George Carlin's question about that big rock, this is "useless obstructionism". The Bible is a book intended to span centuries of use, so what seems absurd to one culture in one point in time is completely understandable for another group in another time.

"If the plain sense makes sense, then don't make another sense."
 
A whale is a mammal, Jonah was swallowed by a fish that was especially prepared for that purpose. For all we know the fish died after spitting Jonah up on the shore and was eaten by thousand of sharks. But we do have the Biblical account and I believe every jot and tittle of it.
 
A whale is a mammal. God created a fish especially for Jonah, what happened to the fish after God was finished with him we do not know.
 
I agree. Since we are talking about an all-powerful God, He could create a special whale for the exact purpose He had in mind. In fact, he can call anything he wants a "whale".
 
Timebuilder said:
Since we are talking about an all-powerful God, He could create a special whale for the exact purpose He had in mind. In fact, he can call anything he wants a "whale".
Oh so that's it! God can do anything he wants, so the generally accepted laws of physics don't apply. Got it.

So how come stuff like this only happens in the Bible, Koran, and Torah? How come "whales" don't swim around swallowing the unfaithful today?

(My wife's answer...she leans a little more to the Faithful side than I do...is that the universe was fundamentally different in Biblical times. She can't explain, however, how and why it changed. I guess God wanted it that way...)
 
So instead of believing it's just an allegory, you think that God changed the laws of physics just to illustrate a point? Not that he couldn't do it if he wanted, but just why would he do that? Just accept it for what it is....an allegorical story meant to illustrate a point. Get it? Oh yeah, you don't get it.
 
Herman Bloom said:
So instead of believing it's just an allegory, you think that God changed the laws of physics just to illustrate a point?
Seems like a stretch, don't it?

In case there's any confusion, I do believe the story of Jonah is an allegory, as is much of the Old Testament. I can't understand how people take a 40-day flood, a talking snake, and a burning bush literally.
 
Typhoon

I can understand it. These are people who will believe ANYTHING as long as it's easy to believe. Again, the dangers of fundamentalism....
 
So instead of believing it's just an allegory, you think that God changed the laws of physics just to illustrate a point? Not that he couldn't do it if he wanted, but just why would he do that? Just accept it for what it is....an allegorical story meant to illustrate a point. Get it? Oh yeah, you don't get it.

Actually it isn't changing all that much. There is archeological confirmation of a prophet named Jonah whose grave was found in northern Israel In addition, some ancient coins have been unearthed with an inscription of a man coming out of a fish's mouth. (Source--N. Geisler and T. Howe, "When Critics Ask")

Also there are reports of men during recent times (last couple of hundred years) that they were in fact swallowed by a whale and lived to tell about it. However I believe they are all unconfirmed reports.

I think it really happened with a real whale that existed. Why not?
 
If a whale was in the eastern med then he really was lost. Maybe Jonah was swallowed by one of those giant sturgeons, just sucked right up.
 
BUMP BUMP

I Bump because (corresponding to the 'Where will you end up' thread):

***For a discussion on why evolution as the explanation of our existence is nothing more then faith filled assumptions see the beginning (I think) few pages.

Feel free to copy and paste from here so we don’t have spend time typing it all out again. If you have a specific question about any logic used in the discussion, I am all ears.
 
Timebuilder said:
Well, you generally have two choices: to read something that is "biased toward Christianity" or you can read something that is "biased against Christianity".


Well science doesn't allow bias toward religion over time. If its wrong its wrong period. There has been few readings biased against christianity that have been proven wrong but many that are with christianity proven wrong.

Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. And when religious fanaticism supplants ratiocination, all bets are suddenly off. Anything can happen. Absolutely anything. Common sense is no match for the voice of God . . .

It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, "mad cow" disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate.
Faith, being belief that isn't based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. And who, looking at Northern Ireland or the Middle East, can be confident that the brain virus of faith is not exceedingly dangerous? One of the stories told to the young Muslim suicide bombers is that martyrdom is the quickest way to heaven — and not just heaven but a special part of heaven where they will receive their special reward of 72 virgin brides. It occurs to me that our best hope may be to provide a kind of "spiritual arms control": send in specially trained theologians to deescalate the going rate in virgins.


I find it ironic that there always seems to be someone who comes forward and says, "Of course, your science is just a religion like ours. Fundamentally, science just comes down to faith, doesn't it?"

Well, science is not religion and it doesn't just come down to faith. Although it has many of religion's virtues, it has none of its vices. Science is based upon verifiable evidence. Religious faith not only lacks evidence, its independence from evidence is its pride and joy, shouted from the rooftops. Why else would Christians wax critical of doubting Thomas? The other apostles are held up to us as exemplars of virtue because faith was enough for them. Doubting Thomas, on the other hand, required evidence. Perhaps he should be the patron saint of scientists.

One reason I receive the comment about science being a religion is because I believe in the fact of evolution. I even believe in it with passionate conviction. To some, this may superficially look like faith. But the evidence that makes me believe in evolution is not only overwhelmingly strong; it is freely available to anyone who takes the trouble to read up on it. Anyone can study the same evidence that I have and presumably come to the same conclusion. But if you have a belief that is based solely on faith, I can't examine your reasons. You can retreat behind the private wall of faith where I can't reach you.
Now in practice, of course, individual scientists do sometimes slip back into the vice of faith, and a few may believe so single-mindedly in a favorite theory that they occasionally falsify evidence. However, the fact that this sometimes happens doesn't alter the principle that, when they do so, they do it with shame and not with pride. The method of science is so designed that it usually finds them out in the end.
Science is actually one of the most moral, one of the most honest disciplines around — because science would completely collapse if it weren't for a scrupulous adherence to honesty in the reporting of evidence.


Consider: a man believes — beyond any doubt — that his god is the only god, is all-powerful and all-knowing, has created him and the entire universe around him, and is capricious, jealous, vindictive, and violent. That same god offers the man a choice between burning in eternal agony in a fully-defined hell, or living forever in a variety of paradises — some of which involve streets of gold and others an ample supply of virgin delights. Is there any choice here? Will the man fail to carry out any command or whim of this deity? How can we doubt that religion is a compulsory system that absolutely rules its adherents? It's a tyranny, a trap, a disaster of infinite size and scope. I'll have none of it.

Examine the notion of a "loving god." This god only loves you if you follow the rules. No questions, no doubts, no objections, are allowed. "Because I said so, that's why." He/she/it loves you as a farmer loves a draft-animal; you're useful, you obey, and you're docile. If you stray, your firstborn will be murdered, if you don't follow a capricious order, you're a pillar of salt. This is "love"? If so, I'll take indifference.

Unlike the religious, who have it all cut-and-dried, predigested and served up to them, I'm willing to be shown. But I will not entertain the argument of threats and fear, I will not fall for the "we don't know everything" throw-down, and I haven't the time to argue the endless anecdotal tales of which the faithful are so fond.

What do I believe in? I believe in the basic goodness of my species, because that appears to be a positive tactic and quality that leads to better chances of survival — and in spite of our foolishness, we seem to have survived. I believe that this system of aging and eventually dying — a system that is the result of the evolutionary process, not of conscious effort — is an excellent process that makes room for hopefully improved members of the species, in an increasingly limited environment. I believe that if we don't smarten up and get a sense of reality and pragmatism, our species will do what they all eventually do: it will cease to exist, prematurely. I also believe that we will get smart, because that's a survival technique, and we're really pretty good at that....

I also believe in puppy-dogs and a child's sparkling eyes, in laughter and smiles, in sunflowers and butterflies. Mountains and icebergs, snowflakes and clouds, are delights to me. Yes, I know that this perception is the result of hard-wiring in my brain, along with the added input of experience and association, but that does not subtract a bit from my appreciation of phenomena. I know that others, both of my species and not, may not share my awe and acceptance of these elements that so please me, because they have different needs and reactions. A cloud is a mass of condensed water-vapor in the atmosphere, I know. But it can be a sailing-ship, a demon, an eagle, if I allow myself to be a human being, and though many will doubt it, I frequently do.


peace.
 

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