For Those About to Vote/Not Vote ALPA At SkyWest...

[120% Torque]

That's where we disagree. I think this training dept is one of the best! How many thousands of pilots has it trained in the last 8 years? 2000 or more? Yet because we are not ALPA it is somehow flawed? People bust upgrade/traing events for a number of reasons. I'm sure you know most of the same stories I do. I am a pilot as are you. But not all pilots are meant to be regional pilots. Getting hired at an airline should not be a jobs program. If ALPA wants someone to get more IOE than 50 hours its the pilots fault, not the companies. Sure if SGU hired the "wrong" person but remember these guys are COMMERCIALLY rated pilots that have passed the sim/AC checkout to get to IOE. Sometimes a person just doesn't have it in them. Maybe if the FAA adopts that new "crew only" certificate we'll be forced to do "extra" training as part of the normal training event.

And just because you failed somewhere along the way, it is not the end of a pilots career. That's standard ALPA Fear tactic #221, without us to save you, you are done! I think most of use can be objective enough to know who should be a captain and who should not. Remember Ms Glideslope? Or Paula? Or the upgradeguy who wanted to call SLC center and/or the FSS to have them turn on the runway lights in PIH?

I have one funny story about your "bad guy" Mr. Taylor. He was doing the type rides to two new EMB captains in SLC. When it came time to taxi out, the first guy became confused as to the taxi route. When told to simply look at his 10-9 chart. That's when he admitted his Jepps were back with his partner in row 9. Taylor had him stop the plane, retrieve is stuff, and then continue. And yes he passed.

There is always room for improvement in any department. Do we need ALPA to "fix" this one? We'll know in mid-Nov.

Fly Safe.

We are not talking about the same pilots. The ones I am talking about were known to be excellent pilots and had a strong track record prior to the time they ran into Taylor for example and were terminated. Taylor is a jeckle and hide. Dont take a checkride with him right after he has a shouting match with one of his ex wives. He is an individual that has a hard time separating his personal and professional self much to many pilots detriment. He has been know to be a major hot head and gets in peoples faces. He never should have been in the training dept and certainly should have been removed after his his failure rate for pilots/captain candidates and the many complaints filed on him. Instead, the company looked the other way. Careers were damaged or ruined for no good reason.

Regarding the training dept all that is being said is that if you hire a pilot based upon criteria established by your company but there was a higher than average failure rate than similar operations then you need to look at the training dept and what needs to be fixed. The fact once again is that skywest is hiring low time pilots, they have less experience and most have never flown anything bigger than a cessna. This is different from when I was hired and the average new hire had over 2000 hours. My first sim partner had 5000 tt and 1000 lear time. Skywest is hiring low time pilots because that is all they can attract. IF they hire someone and that person is motivated to try and has a good attitude but is later failed mainly owing to his lack of experience then that is wrong. The burden once again falls on skywest hiring dept and training dept. I'm not talking about United style, hold your hand till you pass but if a new guy needs 50 hours to gain experience he has never had and skywest hired him knowing he was on the extreme low end in experience then so be it.

Now, back to the original arguement, pilots being fired, who are good pilots that are not liked by the company due to their views on things such as a union. Or the good pilot that heaven forbid is tired and makes a mistake. Have you ever made a mistake. NEVER? These guys deserve a fair representation with due process. If you read the first page of this thread you will know what skywest management says about pilot representation via their lapdog representative group called Sapa:

Issue: Pilots desire for a defendant for review board.
Outcome:“Management will not be able to accommodate due to legal constraints.”

This isnt just about Alpa or not Alpa, its about getting something real in place to protect a good pilots career should something go wrong.

 

[thebest]

Who said Delta ran into a building? Your reading comprehension problems mixed with your other learning abilities have really made it difficult for you haven't they?

Since you cant really remember much about 911 and you are not so good at reading, I want you to watch this clip from start to finish. It will be your first clue that something horrible happened that affected millions of people in many ways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv4s3fn8jDc

.....and all the alpo carriers took a payrate cut, did skyw...I don't know I am just asking?

 

[120% Torque]

.....and all the alpo carriers took a payrate cut, did skyw...I don't know I am just asking?

Aaaaaand Aaaaaagain:

Yes, while skywest management inked very lucrative deals that would fill the company cauffers and allow them to buy other airlines they removed COLA from the pay scales making an effective pay cut. To quote from a friend of mine on this subject:

The difference is when you look at 7-Year Pay Wage WITHOUT COLA ($67.94) vs. 7-YEAR pay WITH COLA ($83.52). The Difference = $15.58/hr. Or $15,580 annually (based on a 1000 hour flying year). This is the BUYING POWER you are giving up! This $15,580 in COLA is just so you can buy the same Starbucks Lattes, groceries for your family, gas for your car, etc. during the next 7 years. I can GUARANTEE the prices of these things will ALL raise at the rate of the CPI (Consumer Price Index) or more during the next 7 years. This $15,580 is JUST TO KEEP UP with the CPI.

Your ANNUAL RAISE (per se) for Experience and Longevity is wiped out by NOT having COLA. In fact, you will be working for the same (Buying Power Wage) 7 years from now as you are today. (Actually a bit less).

I'll make it even more simple. I'll give you a job today, but don't expect a raise for the next 7 years. In fact, you actually have to take a $0.23/hr PAY CUT every year for the next 7 years for the priviledge of me hiring you today.

BTW, COLA is not a fixed number, it fluctuates based upon the CPI. I used an average. Next year is projected to be around 3.1% (could be more . . .could be less)

So YES Skywest pilots DID take a pay cut when they were forced out of COLA which was in place when I was hired.

 

[120% Torque]

Crap crap crap!
What can alpo do...just look at United Delta comair asa etc....
Proof is in da puddin' Boyz!


Go alpa?

Do you even know what Alpa did for these carriers? Do you know anything about these carriers?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Come on, let's not blow this out of proportion. You make it sound like they were forced at gunpoint to work there and have no choice to leave. I fail to see how that corrolates to a country with a long history of human rights violations. I also don't understand your need to use a derogotory term like 'Chinaman" to get your agenda across.

Is it starting to sink in?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That's where we disagree. I think this training dept is one of the best!

How do you know its the best? I am not saying it is not...have been able to compare? And if so.. with whom?

How many thousands of pilots has it trained in the last 8 years? 2000 or more? Yet because we are not ALPA it is somehow flawed?

ACA had a hatchetman. I real bully. He enjoyed busting pilots. Management let it ride. ALPA ensured the process was done fair and right. If not, the ALPA remedied the situation.

Is it starting to sink in?

People bust upgrade/traing events for a number of reasons. I'm sure you know most of the same stories I do. I am a pilot as are you. But not all pilots are meant to be regional pilots.

Does Skywest train or check? Cause the tight profit margin regionals that I know, don;t have the cash to train...only check. Maybe SKWY training dept. has allot of extra money cause your union free....

Getting hired at an airline should not be a jobs program. If ALPA wants someone to get more IOE than 50 hours its the pilots fault, not the companies.

Wrong. You just don;t understand. Many companies will fire an employee/pilot becuase the company made a mistake in training. Instead of owning up to it, the company will make the problem go away. ALPA ensures the policy and procedures are followed. Is that fair? Is that professional?

Sure if SGU hired the "wrong" person but remember these guys are COMMERCIALLY rated pilots that have passed the sim/AC checkout to get to IOE.

Maybe if you paid them well instead of basing pay off of union rates you;d get more talent?

Sometimes a person just doesn't have it in them. Maybe if the FAA adopts that new "crew only" certificate we'll be forced to do "extra" training as part of the normal training event.

With no union to stop it at SKWY you'll be the test bed for MPL.....

And just because you failed somewhere along the way, it is not the end of a pilots career. That's standard ALPA Fear tactic #221, without us to save you, you are done!

Why should a pilot have to explian a failure that was bogus. You can't. Any explanation that isn't admitting full responsibility doesn't work.

I think most of use can be objective enough to know who should be a captain and who should not. Remember Ms Glideslope? Or Paula? Or the upgradeguy who wanted to call SLC center and/or the FSS to have them turn on the runway lights in PIH?

Most of us? All it takes is a few terrorist checkairman to ruin it for all...

There is always room for improvement in any department. Do we need ALPA to "fix" this one? We'll know in mid-Nov.

Fly Safe.

Fly Safer with ALPA....

 

[jea]

What has alpa done to make mesa airlines training department fair as you describe? Specfically the DHC-8.... I am informed... How or what has alpa done? Not a damn thing.

 

[Nightrain_080]

What has alpa done to make mesa airlines training department fair as you describe? Specfically the DHC-8.... I am informed... How or what has alpa done? Not a damn thing.

Stay focused on some real talent like XJET, ASA, and all the MAjor/National airlines represented by ALPA. Try shooting for the stars. Stop worrying about all the negativity at Mesa. Worry about what your future ALPA leadership can do for you.

Do you really want to be one step ahead of Mesa?

Let's improve our own situation and stop relying on other airlines' contracts. ALPA may not be perfect, but it is light years ahead of the current system.

Why step up to the plate with Sapa if you don't even have a BAT to hit all the curveballs that are thrown at you?

 

[difete]

Its better to grieve a contract violation, than to PIC a policy violation.

So here it goes for those asking about the firings:

The first, my friend was a pilot in the rj, he was left at another base waiting for a delayed airplane that was running 3 hours or so behind.

His captain called crew scheduling and left to catch his commuting flight because they released him from duty. He called crew scheduling and he thought he was told he was also released.

He then changed clothes, and was looking for a way to rent a car to drive to his home, and in the mean time he went to have a beer. Crew scheduling called him because they said they had him still on a ready reserve status. He felt bad about it, and was honest enough to tell them he could not work now because he had a drink already and went on to explain what he thought he was released of duty.

Days later he was terminated. He payed his own ticket to SGU. He thought it was all a big misunderstanding, so he wanted to talk in person with J.B.

He told me B.H got there first and told him J.B will not see him, and if he persued legal action to get his job back, he will make sure no other airline would hire him. He was not given the option to resign either.

I personally flew with him and found him to be a very competent pilot.

My second friend went through all 50 hours of captain IOE in the E120 and was let go.

He was sleep deprived being flown to do training rides at midnight and deadheaded during the day and then do more checkrides at midnight the following day.

He had to redo his type ride. He had three check airman throughout and non of them felt comfortable to sign him off.

Weeks later he was terminated by phone. He was not given the option to resign.

I must say he was a very good pilot, and he trained me in my last job flying a Tailwheel Turboprop Beech 18, and King air 90s. I will always admire his skills, and coolness in the cockpit. He now works happily at another carrier.

 

[rtmcfi]

Then why don't they throw the book at all the people on the OC and set them up to fail so they can be fired when they come for a checkride? Do you want your familiy on airplanes flown by people who are not passing checkrides or any other part of the training?

If the union drive dies, they might very well. Here are a couple of posts from a SkyWest checkairman:

I would be very worried if I was someone on the OC, everybody makes mistakes and management can look at things differently depending on their feelings about your conduct.

The policy manual is written very open to interpretation, and thus will be taken to the companies benefit.

Plus he pissed off a few in the jet training dept and knew he wouldn't pass any transition.

If the above posts from a sapa rep/checkairman/training department dude don't make you think twice, I don't know what will.

That said, I think the author of those quotes does mean well for the pilots. I really don't see him as a self-serving management suck-up ala JB, or DL. I just think he has been close enough with management for so long, that he has bought into their anti-union rhetoric. He truly believes Alpa will be bad for the pilot group. I (and hopefully alot of others) disagree with him.

I think SkyWest has a pretty good training department. But please remember, bad pilots are not the only ones who can be washed out by a training department. If you put a target on your back, who is going to watch it for you? This is a timely thread. There is an ALPA OC conference call this afternoon. Check it out, you might learn some stuff. I hope to!