For Those About to Vote/Not Vote ALPA At SkyWest...

[Rez O. Lewshun]

True, but every person terminated needs to have an independent review process with the best available protection and resources. Would you not agree?

Is this not a basic and cornerstone right in our American culture? Why do the Skywest pilots reject thier basic American rights? For what? The chance to spend 100K to fly a jet for 30K? Only to have it all thrown away on a skewed termination....

Skywest pilots...about as much rights as a chinaman.

 

[jstyle13]

Is Skywest currently voting? If not, when do they start? Anyone have know?

 

[Morning Wood]

Is this not a basic and cornerstone right in our American culture? Why do the Skywest pilots reject thier basic American rights? For what? The chance to spend 100K to fly a jet for 30K? Only to have it all thrown away on a skewed termination....

Skywest pilots...about as much rights as a chinaman.

Come on, let's not blow this out of proportion. You make it sound like they were forced at gunpoint to work there and have no choice to leave. I fail to see how that corrolates to a country with a long history of human rights violations. I also don't understand your need to use a derogotory term like 'Chinaman" to get your agenda across.

 

[PCL_128]

I also don't understand your need to use a derogotory term like 'Chinaman" to get your agenda across.

What? Chinaman is offensive now? What the hell are we allowed to say? I hate this PC crap...

 

[120% Torque]

Questioned the training department, absolutely. But the person I responded to implied that people are failing training or checkrides because someone in management or the training dept has it out for them. I find it hard to believe that that is only reason people are not getting thru training with the number of pilots (both newhires and existing) that have training every year and pass. Most that don't are given additional training in one form or another.

I do not support the termination of pilots, but don't be so naive that you think that every pilot who gets fired is a victim and is not guilty of what they are fired for.

I would say that you are the one who is being naive here. Ever heard of "Termination Taylor" who was a check airman in the EMB for many years at skywest? His failure rate was ridiculously high. Here is a guy who had been divorced FOUR times, who was pissed he didnt make it to a major, who hated seeing especially younger guys come into his sim sessions with a smile on their face thinking they would someday be at a major. He was not a happy camper. During a three year period him and Gary Bishop had more pilots terminated on the EMB than almost all the other instructors combined. Taylor had alot of complaints levied against him (New hires who did survive told of his unprofessional behavior, name calling, yelling and generaly over aggressive behavior in the sim) complained to cheif pilots and others but it all fell on deaf ears. I personaly asked Bill Boyce, who was in charge of EMB flight training at the time, in his office about Taylor. I asked, have you noticed a higher than normal failure rate when some of your instructors are giving checkrides than others, like for example S. Taylor? He said "S. Taylor, well no in fact I'm having lunch with S in a few minutes." I came to find out that Taylor had been kissing Boyces butt for some time and even was up for his position when he moved on which fortunately didnt work out when the position was changed.

These guys have mellowed somewhat in recent years, maybe after getting over their mid life crisis. There will always be "power trip" personalities who migrate into the training dept so rest assured you always have a chance of getting a Temination Taylor on one of your checkrides. The point is that there are good pilots who are failed on checkrides and fired who dont deserve to be. Most checkairman know that they can fail anybody on a checkride. One checkairman told me by introducing a sequence of events in a certain order along with loading the pilot up he can nine times out of ten get the guy in the sim to shut down the wrong engine. Now you add in a pissed off sim instructor, where there is little oversite and he is friends with several of the other instructors and no true representation for the pilot and pilots are fired who dont deserve to be, its as simple as that.

Then there is the guy who's dad was a chief pilot for Delta. He had lots of experience and was an excellent pilot. He got in the crosshairs of another pissed off checkairman (J.G. who was a former MD80 pilot who many said crossed the picket line at Eastern) who loaded him up on the first day of IOE, overstated some of his mistakes to Bill Boyce and this pilot was later fired for incompetence. I want to point out that almost everybody that I have ever spoke to who flew with this guy said he was a very sharp pilot.

Even the best pilots put with a checkairman who seems to have a chip on his shoulder can easily find their job in jeapardy. The other thing is once behind the eight ball at skywest they have been known to leave you hanging for weeks without any information of what is going on. I knew another pilot that this happened to. He couldnt sleep for weeks, lost fifteen pounds and of course his performance suffered. He was fired at the end of this devistating his family. You will automatically say he was not a good pilot or that he didnt deserve to be at the controls of an airplane with your family in the back. But once again those who flew with him at a freight job and as a flight instructor said he was an excellent pilot. It also took him nearly ten years to build a good track record to change opinions after skywest showed him as incompetant in his training file. He is now flying at Continental.

Then there is the case of Andy X who was a pro union guy. He along with Andy B posted on the Skywest forums to give their two bits on the value of a union. He was also known to be an excellent pilot by all who flew with him while he was a first officer. During upgrade he was paired with non other than Termination Taylor, was subsequently fired. The list goes on and on. I know some people will refuse to believe there are personalities and agendas that go on in this industry. It will only dawn on you when you find yourself in the hot seat one day because heaven forbid you made a mistake but it is a reality and there are "bad people" who dont care about you and who cannot be trusted with your future carreer. You do in fact need someone that is tasked only with representing you to the fullest. Ask Don D how he was represented by Sapa. What do you think his thoughts were when Jim Black from Sapa, who was supposed to represent him was giving testimony at the so called hearing that actually harmed Don's case. It should be pointed out Jim Black has been gunning for a managment position at skywest for about as long has he has been employed there. Conflict of interest at the expense of a good fifteen year veteran who had no previously flying, or disciplinary issues....you tell me?!

 

[120% Torque]

Having said all that I want to also acknowledge there are true professionals at Skywest. You wont find a more knowledgable or competent check airman than Art Emery. He follows the fundamentals of intructing and always leaves a well polished pilot when he is finished training him. It should also be noted Art has a very low failure rate with his students.

 

[strega7]

I would say that you are the one who is being naive here. Ever heard of "Termination Taylor" who was a check airman in the EMB for many years at skywest? His failure rate was ridiculously high. Here is a guy who had been divorced FOUR times, who was pissed he didnt make it to a major, who hated seeing especially younger guys come into his sim sessions with a smile on their face thinking they would someday be at a major. He was not a happy camper. During a three year period him and Gary Bishop had more pilots terminated on the EMB than almost all the other instructors combined. Taylor had alot of complaints levied against him (New hires who did survive told of his unprofessional behavior, name calling, yelling and generaly over aggressive behavior in the sim) complained to cheif pilots and others but it all fell on deaf ears. I personaly asked Bill Boyce, who was in charge of EMB flight training at the time, in his office about Taylor. I asked, have you noticed a higher than normal failure rate when some of your instructors are giving checkrides than others, like for example S. Taylor? He said "S. Taylor, well no in fact I'm having lunch with S in a few minutes." I came to find out that Taylor had been kissing Boyces butt for some time and even was up for his position when he moved on which fortunately didnt work out when the position was changed.

These guys have mellowed somewhat in recent years, maybe after getting over their mid life crisis. There will always be "power trip" personalities who migrate into the training dept so rest assured you always have a chance of getting a Temination Taylor on one of your checkrides. The point is that there are good pilots who are failed on checkrides and fired who dont deserve to be. Most checkairman know that they can fail anybody on a checkride. One checkairman told me by introducing a sequence of events in a certain order along with loading the pilot up he can nine times out of ten get the guy in the sim to shut down the wrong engine. Now you add in a pissed off sim instructor, where there is little oversite and he is friends with several of the other instructors and no true representation for the pilot and pilots are fired who dont deserve to be, its as simple as that.

Then there is the guy who's dad was a chief pilot for Delta. He had lots of experience and was an excellent pilot. He got in the crosshairs of another pissed off checkairman (J.G. who was a former MD80 pilot who many said crossed the picket line at Eastern) who loaded him up on the first day of IOE, overstated some of his mistakes to Bill Boyce and this pilot was later fired for incompetence. I want to point out that almost everybody that I have ever spoke to who flew with this guy said he was a very sharp pilot.

Even the best pilots put with a checkairman who seems to have a chip on his shoulder can easily find their job in jeapardy. The other thing is once behind the eight ball at skywest they have been known to leave you hanging for weeks without any information of what is going on. I knew another pilot that this happened to. He couldnt sleep for weeks, lost fifteen pounds and of course his performance suffered. He was fired at the end of this devistating his family. You will automatically say he was not a good pilot or that he didnt deserve to be at the controls of an airplane with your family in the back. But once again those who flew with him at a freight job and as a flight instructor said he was an excellent pilot. It also took him nearly ten years to build a good track record to change opinions after skywest showed him as incompetant in his training file. He is now flying at Continental.

Then there is the case of Andy X who was a pro union guy. He along with Andy B posted on the Skywest forums to give their two bits on the value of a union. He was also known to be an excellent pilot by all who flew with him while he was a first officer. During upgrade he was paired with non other than Termination Taylor, was subsequently fired. The list goes on and on. I know some people will refuse to believe there are personalities and agendas that go on in this industry. It will only dawn on you when you find yourself in the hot seat one day because heaven forbid you made a mistake but it is a reality and there are "bad people" who dont care about you and who cannot be trusted with your future carreer. You do in fact need someone that is tasked only with representing you to the fullest. Ask Don D how he was represented by Sapa. What do you think his thoughts were when Jim Black from Sapa, who was supposed to represent him was giving testimony at the so called hearing that actually harmed Don's case. It should be pointed out Jim Black has been gunning for a managment position at skywest for about as long has he has been employed there. Conflict of interest at the expense of a good fifteen year veteran who had no previously flying, or disciplinary issues....you tell me?!

As a current checkairman all I'll I'm going to say is that there is always more to the story than what your average line pilot is going to hear. You make it sound like we have so much power and no accountability. Sorry to bust your bubble but that's not how it is. Yes there are guys that get reputations because they are jerks but you are not alone. Maybe 10 years ago there were rogues in the training department, but I challenge you to name a bad apple thats giving PC's now. Remember, we are hiring guys now that are pure CFI or less! We just changed the way we count IOE hours to get everyone the absolute most time we can. Would ALPA get a new hire more than 50 hours of IOE? Are there going to be ALPA reps that are going to armchair quarterback a persons sim session that was unsat? Wasn't there supposed to be ruling on the Don D. case months ago? And didn't the company make one of he OC members a checkairman well after the drive was organized?

You said,"The point is that there are good pilots who are failed on checkrides and fired who dont deserve to be." What is your basis for this? Are you saying that one bust and your gone? Can you tell us what happens after a person busts their PC?

 

[120% Torque]

As a current checkairman all I'll I'm going to say is that there is always more to the story than what your average line pilot is going to hear. You make it sound like we have so much power and no accountability. Sorry to bust your bubble but that's not how it is. Yes there are guys that get reputations because they are jerks but you are not alone. Maybe 10 years ago there were rogues in the training department, but I challenge you to name a bad apple thats giving PC's now. Remember, we are hiring guys now that are pure CFI or less! We just changed the way we count IOE hours to get everyone the absolute most time we can. Would ALPA get a new hire more than 50 hours of IOE? Are there going to be ALPA reps that are going to armchair quarterback a persons sim session that was unsat? Wasn't there supposed to be ruling on the Don D. case months ago? And didn't the company make one of he OC members a checkairman well after the drive was organized?

You said,"The point is that there are good pilots who are failed on checkrides and fired who dont deserve to be." What is your basis for this? Are you saying that one bust and your gone? Can you tell us what happens after a person busts their PC?

Yes ALPA reps will intervene and stand in if there is questions regarding how a checkride has been administered. The company making an OC member a checkairman has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I stated above that we also have very professional checkairman. Some will be on the OC, others not.

After a person busts an upgrade checkride they will get another ride. Unfortunetely this is where the checkairman buddy system has come into play in the past. Remember the Captain canidate does not get to choose his instructor. In the case of Andy X he was given another instructor who was friends with the first. The checkride was extra "thorough" and ended in a bust. Here is a guy who had been with skywest several years, a perfect track record in training, all captains he flew with said he was a very sharp pilot. Andy was vocal about the union. Mysterously during his upgrade ride if you were to believe the check airman conducting it and the subsequent ride, Andy didn't know what rudder puddles where or up from down. He got broadsided, there is no two ways about it. If you go talk to instructors who are really familiar with the details, and who are willing to share, you will find out more. I have.

If pilots are busting at an abnormal rate, yes I do think with a good MEC, Alpa would figure out what it was going to take to see guys succeed after skywest "screened" them and offered them a job, up to and including 50 plus hours of IOE. It is true experience level coming into this job is down but once a guy is hired and making a sincere effort which 99.9% do at this level, the burden is on the company and the training dept to develop a training program that works and is helping pilots to succeed rather than getting them fired or failed, ending their career.

 

[Nightrain_080]

I dont remember working 6 days in a row, one day off and six days in a row again during hard lines.

Yes but PBS is sooooooooooo great MMMMMMMkay

I am going to need you to come in and work on Sundayyyyyyyyyyyyy mmmmmmmmmmmmmmkay you have been CN'nd
Crew Needs.

Now if anyone in Sapa that has a cush schedule had to work a sweet SIX day pairing, then maybe they would pull their f-ing heads out and do something besides close up PIC's.

I am going to have to vote for ALPA mmmmmmkay.

If they put mainline interests first, so be it.

Peace

 

[strega7]

the burden is on the company and the training dept to develop a training program that works and is helping pilots to succeed rather than getting them fired or failed, ending their career.

That's where we disagree. I think this training dept is one of the best! How many thousands of pilots has it trained in the last 8 years? 2000 or more? Yet because we are not ALPA it is somehow flawed? People bust upgrade/traing events for a number of reasons. I'm sure you know most of the same stories I do. I am a pilot as are you. But not all pilots are meant to be regional pilots. Getting hired at an airline should not be a jobs program. If ALPA wants someone to get more IOE than 50 hours its the pilots fault, not the companies. Sure if SGU hired the "wrong" person but remember these guys are COMMERCIALLY rated pilots that have passed the sim/AC checkout to get to IOE. Sometimes a person just doesn't have it in them. Maybe if the FAA adopts that new "crew only" certificate we'll be forced to do "extra" training as part of the normal training event.

And just because you failed somewhere along the way, it is not the end of a pilots career. That's standard ALPA Fear tactic #221, without us to save you, you are done! I think most of use can be objective enough to know who should be a captain and who should not. Remember Ms Glideslope? Or Paula? Or the upgradeguy who wanted to call SLC center and/or the FSS to have them turn on the runway lights in PIH?

I have one funny story about your "bad guy" Mr. Taylor. He was doing the type rides to two new EMB captains in SLC. When it came time to taxi out, the first guy became confused as to the taxi route. When told to simply look at his 10-9 chart. That's when he admitted his Jepps were back with his partner in row 9. Taylor had him stop the plane, retrieve is stuff, and then continue. And yes he passed.

There is always room for improvement in any department. Do we need ALPA to "fix" this one? We'll know in mid-Nov.

Fly Safe.