For Pilots, Dreams Run Into Reality

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The problem is we want him to start at $25 an hour so that he can cross subsidize a Capt's pay (ain't seniority grand?). Plus, seniority isn't worth a nickel. Pax don't care what your seniority number or years of service are. Flatten the F'n Charts!
..

Agreed! The senior guys have always forgotten what its like to to be junior....

For the same reason why you as a interview Capt. worn't hire a senior guy, the senior guy isn't going to give $20 of his hourly rate to first year pay.

So if you won't do it... why should he change?


61,000 independant contractors acting like they care.

 

[T-Bags]

What advantage would management have in agreeing to a Guild

First, you need to understand that UAL would rather pay a 737 Capt $250 an hour IF EVERYONE ELSE MAKES $250 AN HOUR, than pay him, $100 an hour if everyone else makes $50.
The key is to phase in a min pay scale in a way that prevents any company being at a disadvantage with it's peers. One possible solution is to have a "5 year" phase in that would allow each major pilot group to go thru a contract negotiation. You structure the contracts to have a "me too" clause, ie, we will make the higher of $XXX or the rate being paid by the last airline to negotiate. Granted $XXX would be BELOW what you would have been able to negotiate, but it's temporary. All of the signatory pilot MECs would agree to have a contract that met the mins by the end of the phase-in period. No exceptions.
If you go down swinging (BK), then maybe the unions should be getting together to determine how much each group benefited from the BK and hand them hiring quotos to get those guys who stood up for the profession a new job....at GUILD WAGES.

The concept is sound, and specifics could be worked out...unfortunately, my union (and your's) is too busy figuring out a way to keep old @sswipes who should have retired at 60 medically qualified while on their deathbeds....

 

[T-Bags]

Agreed! The senior guys have always forgotten what its like to to be junior....

For the same reason why you as a interview Capt. worn't hire a senior guy, the senior guy isn't going to give $20 of his hourly rate to first year pay.

So if you won't do it... why should he change?


61,000 independant contractors acting like they care.

I'm not asking him too, and he won't have to if EVERYONE agrees to raise the min. Glenn Tilton b1tches about fuel costs, BUT HE PAYS THEM. Why? Because they won't give him any IF HE DOESN'T PAY. It ain't complicated.

But frankly, as a guy with about 10 years of seniority at UAL and a widebody FO seat, I WOULD DO THE RIGHT THING. Times have changed, and I don't think the 60 plus 747-400 crowd has quite the clout they think they do, and the "mid year" guys (and don't be offended) at the majors are populated by a bunch of guys (military) who have been taught about ethics and trying to do the right thing for a large part of their lives, and frankly can see themselves being in a position of having to look for a job with another airline one day. Helping raise the bar at ALL airlines for junior pilots at a small cost to your paycheck could be looked at as a little bit of insurance...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What advantage would management have in agreeing to a Guild

First, you need to understand that UAL would rather pay a 737 Capt $250 an hour IF EVERYONE ELSE MAKES $250 AN HOUR, than pay him, $100 an hour if everyone else makes $50.
The key is to phase in a min pay scale in a way that prevents any company being at a disadvantage with it's peers. One possible solution is to have a "5 year" phase in that would allow each major pilot group to go thru a contract negotiation. You structure the contracts to have a "me too" clause, ie, we will make the higher of $XXX or the rate being paid by the last airline to negotiate. Granted $XXX would be BELOW what you would have been able to negotiate, but it's temporary. All of the signatory pilot MECs would agree to have a contract that met the mins by the end of the phase-in period. No exceptions.

Contracts are ammendable. Now each party (company and union) can agree to open section 6 before the ammendable date.

But why would a company agree to do that? And how does ALPA get all companies to do that in a reasonable time frame (window).

Let's say you are able to do this...

How is ALPA going to get each company to agree to a TA within a reasonable time frame? And what about the nmb ?

As long as a pro CorpAmerica nmb is in place the companies have carte blanc to stall...

If you go down swinging (BK), then maybe the unions should be getting together to determine how much each group benefited from the BK and hand them hiring quotos to get those guys who stood up for the profession a new job....at GUILD WAGES.

If a company acquires assets then seniority can be negotiated... as past precedence.. ex PAA to UAL.

Again.. why would a company agree to Guild wages? You lost me on that..

The concept is sound, and specifics could be worked out...unfortunately, my union (and your's) is too busy figuring out a way to keep old @sswipes who should have retired at 60 medically qualified while on their deathbeds....

Maybe... but is that really the reason?

 

[waveflyer]

T-bags = you have assumptions that under a NSL a senior pilot would have to interview. ie: do you have to interview w/ the DC chief pilot if you want to transfer in from Chicago? No- there simply has to be an opening. The biggest roadblock to a NSL are the assumptions that individual pilots have about how it will work.

Do you think CEO's really care who is flying their a/c? From experience- pilot recruitment offices are an expense- all they need are pilots that fill their insurance needs and get through training in the average time- that's it. We ARE FUEL to them. An expense required to get the a/c from A to B. They want that expense to be as cheap as possible.

Rez- how did we convince companies to adopt the seniority system to begin with? Don't fool yourself- our seniority system creates a ripple affect in training costs that is very expensive. Our seniority system is also causing so much strife that mergers are being held up. We're affecting the airline industry in a huge way.
Under a NSL, there would be a training cost incentive to increase wages to retain pilots. Seniority would mean something as everyone would be in their natural position. Aviation will be growing= and at least under a NSL- the appropriate pilots would be the ones who got furloughed- ie: kids out of college- not senior Aloha/ATA pilots and 35-40 yo ex regional captains.

Think also of the security of diversifying your career that much. Diversifying the type of flying. The diversity of bases now opened up to everyone. The diversity of company cultures now opened up. Think of how much more control you'll have over your life knowing that once you gain seniority- you will not lose it unless the entire market for pilots decreases- which is not predicted to happen. Our current system is SO negative- and so unfair=- that when compared to the benefits- we have the environment to work the problem and finally get it done.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm not asking him too, and he won't have to if EVERYONE agrees to raise the min. Glenn Tilton b1tches about fuel costs, BUT HE PAYS THEM. Why? Because they won't give him any IF HE DOESN'T PAY. It ain't complicated.

That is the real rub here? Its not economics.. rather it is getting everyone (85%) to agree.

But frankly, as a guy with about 10 years of seniority at UAL and a widebody FO seat, I WOULD DO THE RIGHT THING.

I'd like to think I would too.... but will that guy over there... do it.

Times have changed, and I don't think the 60 plus 747-400 crowd has quite the clout they think they do, and the "mid year" guys (and don't be offended) at the majors are populated by a bunch of guys (military) who have been taught about ethics and trying to do the right thing for a large part of their lives, and frankly can see themselves being in a position of having to look for a job with another airline one day.

Not sure about that.... I don't think you can stero type a group like that... regardless, if they were unified.. we could get it done...

Helping raise the bar at ALL airlines for junior pilots at a small cost to your paycheck could be looked at as a little bit of insurance...

Agreed. Is SW the guy to do it over there?

There are plenty of ways to do this... and it won't happen until we are all informed and unified.

That is my effort. All the stuff we want to do.. the changes, the plans etc.. are not going to happen until we are all lockstep. Fix that first and then we can do guilds, NSL, pay rates, etc...

 

[T-Bags]

Wave,
I understand your seniority issues, I just think they are unworkable for a variety of reasons:
When does your seniority start? How about military guys? If a guy got out of the military, does another guy who stayed until retirement then get to come in above him? Does accrual stop when you aren't flying? What about mothers? Does a guy who flies 200 hours a year for 10 years at an FBO accrue and stay ahead of a guy who started 1 day later (it was raining in his town) and flew 100o a year for fed ex?

We also still do things like give old farts more vacation days. From a company perspective, do you hire a Capt who you'll have to give 44 days of vacation to (at higher payrates) or a younger Capt who only rates 20? They do the EXACT same job.

 

[waveflyer]

T-bags:
Again- those are assumptions and problems to work out.
In all honesty- that's not the real question. The real one is that if we set guild payrates- which i agree is a start-just not an end solution- you're asking pilots at weak companies to put their company at risk and not do everything possible to save it. Everyone is scared out of their mind not to just lose pay- but lose the schedule and life.
If their company goes under- they will lose that schedule- and many pilots have lost their family b/c of that too- It's not an end all solution unless we can protect pilots from companies going out of business too.

Not to mention all the pilots criss-crossing the skies on bad commutes b/c their company pulled out of cities where we had roots. How many AAA pilots have houses in PIT and San Diego still? How many CAL pilots w/ houses in DEN?
W/ a NSL you just bid for whatever company is close to where you live. You hold what you hold and all that needs to happen is have the market go up for pilots. You can choose to be a turboprop captain if you like if it gets you the schedule and base you want- if you'd rather fly widebodies around the world- than bid that-
But this idea that one pilot is better than another- Regional vs Major, TP vs Jet, Military vs Civilian, Wide vs Narrow, Capt vs FO - for the most part is really, really invalid. We need to all get to a place where we respect ALL pilots- 172 to PA44 to F16 to RJ to 777- they all have their challenges and all can kill or violate you if not done well.
To answer one of your questions- i'd say the fairest way is to go DOH from the time you joined a 121/union job or when you passed military flight school, then subtract months/years when you weren't actively flying. That respects all sides as equally as we can. And yes- i would think that you should build seniority in our union while serving in the military. I'd question anyone who disagrees w/ that- and i'm a civilian. But it would all have to be worked out. None of the problems are bigger than the ones our current system provide us. Remember that- and we can work out the rest.

 

[pilotyip]

In the end the ticket purchaser will determine how much you are paid. Sure you can put together some system that guarantees a pay increase across the pilot wide ranks, But if the airlines have to raise prices to do this, there will less travelers, equals fewer flights, equals fewer jobs. For the guys that keep their jobs it would be great news. Again the seniority systems would protect those at the top. BTW how do you stop an airline that hires non-union pilots, or pilots that have been kicked out of the guild and under cuts the system by 35%?

 

[T-Bags]

In the end the ticket purchaser will determine how much you are paid. Sure you can put together some system that guarantees a pay increase across the pilot wide ranks, But if the airlines have to raise prices to do this, there will less travelers, equals fewer flights, equals fewer jobs. For the guys that keep their jobs it would be great news. Again the seniority systems would protect those at the top. BTW how do you stop an airline that hires non-union pilots, or pilots that have been kicked out of the guild and under cuts the system by 35%?

Scab pilots: First, we'd need to start acting like a union. If you fly for a nonunion operator, you are labeled a scab. You can not get a job with a Guild carrier. Non Guild carriers get no jumpseats, and get picketed. Imagine trying to start "skybust" under those rules. All your pilots would have to live locally, and all of them know that the wouldn't be building big jet time for their next job... You have to kill the scab outfits while they're small.

The need for pilots: Under the current deal, pilots are flying their @sses off. there would be no problem with having some min standard work rules as part of the deal (trip/ duty rigs). If pilot pay went up by 50%, total cost only goes up by about 5%. Would that reduce demand? Yes, but not by much and the amount it would be reduced would be more than made up by us being "less efficient" (ie not flying 95 hours a month)

 

[T-Bags]

In the end the ticket purchaser will determine how much you are pay

Kind of the same way they determine how much jet fuel costs huh...

 

[AdlerDriver]

Anyone else see the guy's name in the original article?

He needs to upgrade just so he can answer to, Captain Captain someday (esp. since he didn't get that in the USN)

 

[30West]

but how long can you make 777 captain pay on a 737?

Isn't the real question how long can you make 737 pay as a 777 captain?

 

[wms]

yes i do- and i'm on-board w/ your acting not talking agenda. Firmly agree.
I will tell you this- ALPA has a lot more support for this than they think-- ask every USAir pilot voting to decert right now-- the only thing they believe in more than USAPA is a NSL
Ask aloha pilots what they would think of a NSL
Ask ATA
Excuse me, if, a disenfranchised young pilot like myself doesn't keep calling to task every senior person on this board to take up the charge. Our seniority does not work in THIS DYNAMIC OF AN ENVIRONMENT. I'm young- but i've been around to know i'm smarter than most of you- follow your logic all the way to it's end-- Seniority disappearing in mergers and bankruptcies and scope reliefs will NOT STOP until we set up a system where it doesn't BENEFIT management to use it against us.

The environment is RIGHT= for the first time in the 30 years since deregulation- there is enough being held up and enough failings to argue successfully for a national seniority list.

A national seniority list, so after searching hard for the best company to work for you can be displaced from a great company to the street by a guy who chose to work at another airline that went out of business. Pilots won't buy it, and airlines won't buy it because of the cost of being forced to retrain pilots they were forced to take because of another airlines failure.

Won't happen. Displacements within a company are a nightmare enough, with domicile changes, etc. Displacements within an industry would be a catastrophe.

 

[LearLove]

Yeah, and Ernest Gann left the airlines, walking away from American Airlines . . . . and on to bigger and better things, as an author, sailor, and screenwriter. Quite a life, and quite a guy.

Those of you who haven't read his books might pick up a copy of "Fate is the Hunter" followed by his autobiography, "A Hostage to Fortune".

Ernest was the "real deal", like Hemingway, but without the bullfighting.

yes I've read his books - you forget, he "walked away" from AA for a shot a "super senority" at a steamship line. It didn't work out. He wound up flying for a charter operater (forrunner or some relation to present day World Airlines). I believe he said something to the effect about "thoes who try to defy the numbers will become hyenias themselves"