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but how long can you make 777 captain pay on a 737?
yes i do- and i'm on-board w/ your acting not talking agenda. Firmly agree.
I will tell you this- ALPA has a lot more support for this than they think-- ask every USAir pilot voting to decert right now-- the only thing they believe in more than USAPA is a NSL
Ask aloha pilots what they would think of a NSL
Ask ATA
Excuse me, if, a disenfranchised young pilot like myself doesn't keep calling to task every senior person on this board to take up the charge. Our seniority does not work in THIS DYNAMIC OF AN ENVIRONMENT. I'm young- but i've been around to know i'm smarter than most of you- follow your logic all the way to it's end-- Seniority disappearing in mergers and bankruptcies and scope reliefs will NOT STOP until we set up a system where it doesn't BENEFIT management to use it against us.
The environment is RIGHT= for the first time in the 30 years since deregulation- there is enough being held up and enough failings to argue successfully for a national seniority list.
Yeah, and Ernest Gann left the airlines, walking away from American Airlines . . . . and on to bigger and better things, as an author, sailor, and screenwriter. Quite a life, and quite a guy.
Those of you who haven't read his books might pick up a copy of "Fate is the Hunter" followed by his autobiography, "A Hostage to Fortune".
Ernest was the "real deal", like Hemingway, but without the bullfighting.
T-bags = you have assumptions that under a NSL a senior pilot would have to interview. ie: do you have to interview w/ the DC chief pilot if you want to transfer in from Chicago? No- there simply has to be an opening. The biggest roadblock to a NSL are the assumptions that individual pilots have about how it will work.
Do you think CEO's really care who is flying their a/c? From experience- pilot recruitment offices are an expense- all they need are pilots that fill their insurance needs and get through training in the average time- that's it. We ARE FUEL to them. An expense required to get the a/c from A to B. They want that expense to be as cheap as possible.
Rez- how did we convince companies to adopt the seniority system to begin with? Don't fool yourself- our seniority system creates a ripple affect in training costs that is very expensive. Our seniority system is also causing so much strife that mergers are being held up. We're affecting the airline industry in a huge way.
Under a NSL, there would be a training cost incentive to increase wages to retain pilots. Seniority would mean something as everyone would be in their natural position. Aviation will be growing= and at least under a NSL- the appropriate pilots would be the ones who got furloughed- ie: kids out of college- not senior Aloha/ATA pilots and 35-40 yo ex regional captains.
Think also of the security of diversifying your career that much. Diversifying the type of flying. The diversity of bases now opened up to everyone. The diversity of company cultures now opened up.
Think of how much more control you'll have over your life knowing that once you gain seniority- you will not lose it unless the entire market for pilots decreases- which is not predicted to happen. Our current system is SO negative- and so unfair=- that when compared to the benefits- we have the environment to work the problem and finally get it done.
T-bags:
Again- those are assumptions and problems to work out.
In all honesty- that's not the real question. The real one is that if we set guild payrates- which i agree is a start-just not an end solution- you're asking pilots at weak companies to put their company at risk and not do everything possible to save it. Everyone is scared out of their mind not to just lose pay- but lose the schedule and life.
If their company goes under- they will lose that schedule- and many pilots have lost their family b/c of that too- It's not an end all solution unless we can protect pilots from companies going out of business too.
Not to mention all the pilots criss-crossing the skies on bad commutes b/c their company pulled out of cities where we had roots. How many AAA pilots have houses in PIT and San Diego still? How many CAL pilots w/ houses in DEN?
W/ a NSL you just bid for whatever company is close to where you live.
You hold what you hold and all that needs to happen is have the market go up for pilots.
You can choose to be a turboprop captain if you like if it gets you the schedule and base you want- if you'd rather fly widebodies around the world- than bid that-
But this idea that one pilot is better than another- Regional vs Major, TP vs Jet, Military vs Civilian, Wide vs Narrow, Capt vs FO - for the most part is really, really invalid. We need to all get to a place where we respect ALL pilots- 172 to PA44 to F16 to RJ to 777- they all have their challenges and all can kill or violate you if not done well.
To answer one of your questions- i'd say the fairest way is to go DOH from the time you joined a 121/union job or when you passed military flight school, then subtract months/years when you weren't actively flying. That respects all sides as equally as we can. And yes- i would think that you should build seniority in our union while serving in the military. I'd question anyone who disagrees w/ that- and i'm a civilian. But it would all have to be worked out. None of the problems are bigger than the ones our current system provide us. Remember that- and we can work out the rest.
In the end the ticket purchaser will determine how much you are paid. Sure you can put together some system that guarantees a pay increase across the pilot wide ranks, But if the airlines have to raise prices to do this, there will less travelers, equals fewer flights, equals fewer jobs.
And that's the problem with an NSL. I've thought quite a bit about this, as I thought it was a good idea and wanted to flesh it out: how to implement it, how to get membership AND management to buy off on it, and it's just not workable for everyone.For the guys that keep their jobs it would be great news. Again the seniority systems would protect those at the top.
SOLUTION:
I believe a GUILD approach from within ALPA (if you can ever get the old farts in Herndon to sign off on it) is the best answer right now, combined with changes in Aviation bankruptcy laws and pension reform, plus changes on an FAR level to minimum standards for airline pilots.
Negotiate the BASE wage and work from a "bottom-up" approach to raising pay and benefits. Make senior pilots understand that the bottom has to be solidified before the roof can be raised. airTran pilots get it, for the most part. It's not a difficult concept and is easily understood by pilots.
Use ALPA-PAC and CAPA-PAC to raise the minimum hiring requirement for ALL airlines to require the Multiengine ATP and lock the ATP requirements where they are so they can't be reduced. No more 500 hour wunderkids at Mesa and PCL. Go build time instructing in a 172, towing banners, dusting crops, whatever.
It's a two-pronged approach, working within our own system, setting realistic goals, and making slow change in the House and Senate over the next 2-3 years.