For Pilots, Dreams Run Into Reality

[Lear70]

As the extraordinary amount of dissent in this thread demonstrates, the industry is in an extreme downward spiral and pilots are, frankly, to stupid and selfish to save it. We cannot see past the end of our nose, all we care about - as a group - is getting all of our toys at the expense of others (junior guys, quick cheap time at the expense of major pay rates, scabbing, etc.) and we really don't care much about anyone else.

I guess it is an illness that permeates our society, everyone in it for themselves, then run to church on Sunday and pretend they aren't selfish, or use affiliation with a group to excuse why I should be privaledged and others aren't. All this leads to is a sort of social cannibalism which is what has lead to the utter rending of this as a proud and decent profession.

Look at the navy captain in this article, I will just go to Compass, fly for 21K and move on as quick as I can. The problem is, once one agrees to work for that wage, the precedent has been set and you will never get away from lower wage demands by management following you all the way to the majors. That is exactly what has happened to our pay rates in the majors, amongst other things.

One of those other things being a 'game-like' attitude by management to pay us as little as possible so as to maximize profits for shareholders (read realistically as the top 10% of any corporate structure). How anyone in this day and age could somehow play along politically with parties (all 2 of them) that shamelessly cater to this income climate we are in (mgmnt income up over 200%, labor flat to down 40%) is beyond me. The need to be part of the organization or part of the 'old guard of the institution' I guess.

I just can't imagine how this industry, or for that matter, our greater economy, which our politicians have whored out from under us, will ever get better. There are times when I think we are living under a government that is as crooked as a banana republic, everyone available for the right price (see Virgin America or our version of NAFTA - open skies). And for the record, I am not only talking about our present 'administration' or only one level of government.

One more thought, when my grandfather (who raised me) fought in the second world war he had a home to come back too and worked in a factory job (he was infantry, not an officer) for 46 years. What does the Iraq war infantry person today have to look forward too? A house that has lost around 20% of its' value and no good wage/benefit jobs -unless you consider Walmart good- to be be had. NAFTA'd away by politicians who themselves may have been veterans. If these same soldiers that are heroes on Fox news today come home and protest this predicament, they will be derided by the same news channel tomorrow as liberals, socialist, communist wealth re-distributors, or what ever we call people who don't keep their mouth shut. The O'Reillys, Becks, Hannitys, and Limbaughs are doing just fine, so what is your probelm?

Okay, now I am done ranting. Been off of work with an illness for 2 weeks, under stimulated I suppose. Now to pay the price for letting my thoughts out amongst other pilots......

OK... that's a lot of negativity, but I can't blame you for being upset. The last 20 years of aviation history isn't exactly "fantastic".

Now, how do you propose helping us fix it?

Negativity is OK, as long as positive actions are the outcome.

 

[Kugelblitz]

OK... that's a lot of negativity, but I can't blame you for being upset. The last 20 years of aviation history isn't exactly "fantastic".

Now, how do you propose helping us fix it?

Negativity is OK, as long as positive actions are the outcome.

Your are absolutely right, certainly about me. The TWA/AA thing ('97 hire at TWA) really had a significant impact on my psyche, more so than I am willing to admit. Not pointing fingers at either group because there was a lot of ugliness to go around, but to watch a personal, slow-motion train wreck like that is hard to take and not walk away bitter.

Sorry for all the bad vibes.

As for how to fix it? Man, how do you stop desperate people from acting desperately? This is akin to trying to solve the issues of the inner city or fix Iraq, the problem is holistic in nature and cannot be summed up with one quick fix.

We as a pilot group, and as a society in general need to somehow find the humanity in our neighbors again and act on behalf of the greater good. Unless you choose to only listen to 2% of the scientific community, we have a real threat to our species survival unfolding with climate change. Some generation, ours by necessity, will need to make drastic sacrifices in the way it lives to ensure our children and our grand children will have a planet worth living on and a quality of life to go along with it.

Do we have the integrity to do this? Read my above post, negative though it may be. As far as concrete political initiatives I cannot think of any other than eradicating lobbyist, limiting corporate input into our political system, and understanding that big business serves us not us serving them.

Any politician that would try and enact agenda's along these lines will find themselves politically excommunicated or on the business end of a grassy knoll. (See campaign finance reform for example).

Nonetheless, as you implied, unbridled negativity serves no purpose. Thanks for pointing that out, I will certainly try and check that and see the brighter side of things.

MR

 

[OK3]

Lear 70,

I think your guild idea has merit. We just need to figure out a way to address this nationally. Maybe CAPA is the organization to do this? I think almost every major airline group is a part of that organization. I see very few drawbacks to the guild idea, as opposed to the NSL which would never work.

 

[Kugelblitz]

Lear 70,

I think your guild idea has merit. We just need to figure out a way to address this nationally. Maybe CAPA is the organization to do this? I think almost every major airline group is a part of that organization. I see very few drawbacks to the guild idea, as opposed to the NSL which would never work.

Surely a NSL would be subject to a great deal of malfeasance by politicians both in and out of the pilot community.

 

[waveflyer]

Isn't the real question how long can you make 737 pay as a 777 captain?

That's a better way to frame it- yes.

 

[WNC Flyer]

Did you catch the name of the guy - Jason Captain?

"flying today is Captain Smith and First Officer Captain"

Thats like Corporal-Captain from that M*A*S*H episode so many years ago.

Or, in his brief after upgrade training "I'm Captain Captain"

I once flew with Major Major

 

[relief tube]

a very insightful look at how this industry has changed for the worse since oil prices tripled due to worldwide demand and fares tripled downward.

Thank you China and LCC's.

 

[waveflyer]

ALL
assumptions assumptions. You're pretending like our current seniority system IS working for corporate america. I don't think it's working for anyone. Have you seen the last 2 mergers Rez? AAA/AWA going on 3 years of separate operations. DAL/NWA WAS held up b/c of our seniority issues... where have you been?
The other question you have to ask is - was our seniority system designed to be taken advantage of in this way? No- it was created at a time when big business was more stable and employees everywhere could reasonably expect their company to last their career. Now that is an unreasonable assumption. The entire economy is made to be MUCH more dynamic-

The guild is a great idea. So is upping first year pay and stop the stupid idea of END LOADING the career. A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow- we need to stop sacrificing $$ today to make WB pay in 10-20 years. There is NO reason WB captains should make THAT much more than everyone else. And it is a good point that flattening out the payscales will help.
Bottom line- i believe that a NSL can be worked out and it won't be as hard as you'd like to believe. But we need to be able to change companies w/o the ENORMOUS HIT IN PAY and LIFESTYLE. However we do it- that's what we have to change. Otherwise we perpetuate the motivation for pilots to sacrifice damn near everything to keep their seniority.

btw-I think middle managers and VP of Ops like to have power and control over hiring b/c it makes them feel important. I think CEO's could give a rat's arse who flies the plane as long as they're competent.

The bigger problem w/ a NSL is that it's basically socialist. If we all negotiated our own contracts and moved about airline to airline in a free market- while our union/guild/pac dues went to increasing standards and leverage- the airlines would pay market rates 3 times as high as we make now b/c they wouldn't feel "forced" to by a union. It really does come down to basic self-determination theory and the dynamics of needing to "win" a fight.
The problem w/ free-market pilots is safety. I don't think we want a career w/ no seniority. It solves more problems for us than it creates. We need the ability to tell our company to F off if they ask us to do something unsafe. How do you do that if unrepresented. To me- it's like tenure for professors- w/ more dire consequences than simply free-speech. So- i think a NSL is the thing to do.
'One thing i KNOW is that our current system is not working and one of these ideas should be implemented.

 

[Lear70]

It's not "my" idea of a guild. Other people came up with it, I'm just fleshing it out to include other things that need to be fixed for a "total solution".

Bear in mind, that's all based on the market not changing dramatically and, as we all know, this market changes in DRASTIC ways with little or no warning.

Rest assured we can work to change things and management will try a new angle to minimize their labor costs. You can take that one to the bank.

But to not try SOMETHING is to just sit back, resign yourself to the slide in compensation at QOL that this profession has endured the last 10 years, and become part of the problem.

What we need now, quite honestly, is to get enough people at several carriers' MEC's to sign on to the idea, meet together, flesh out a plan of action, contingency plans, and a communications plan to bring the pilots on board with support, then roll it out.

The more people who get on board, the better it will work. Rez is right about one thing; without solidarity behind the idea, it'll die in committee.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALL
assumptions assumptions. You're pretending like our current seniority system IS working for corporate america. I don't think it's working for anyone. Have you seen the last 2 mergers Rez? AAA/AWA going on 3 years of separate operations. DAL/NWA WAS held up b/c of our seniority issues... where have you been?

But most importantly... the jets have not stopped flying...

The other question you have to ask is - was our seniority system designed to be taken advantage of in this way? No- it was created at a time when big business was more stable and employees everywhere could reasonably expect their company to last their career. Now that is an unreasonable assumption. The entire economy is made to be MUCH more dynamic-

RLA... the jets are still moving. Until they stop there is no incentive for Corp and gov't to change.

The guild is a great idea. So is upping first year pay and stop the stupid idea of END LOADING the career. A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow- we need to stop sacrificing $$ today to make WB pay in 10-20 years. There is NO reason WB captains should make THAT much more than everyone else. And it is a good point that flattening out the payscales will help.

Agreed mostly...

Bottom line- i believe that a NSL can be worked out and it won't be as hard as you'd like to believe. But we need to be able to change companies w/o the ENORMOUS HIT IN PAY and LIFESTYLE. However we do it- that's what we have to change. Otherwise we perpetuate the motivation for pilots to sacrifice damn near everything to keep their seniority.

Respond to my post that negate a NSL.. Don't just say.. "It's not as Hard as you'd like to believe"

btw-I think middle managers and VP of Ops like to have power and control over hiring b/c it makes them feel important. I think CEO's could give a rat's arse who flies the plane as long as they're competent.

Agreed... but that doesn't change things..

So- i think a NSL is the thing to do.

Then be convincing. Your idea has no teeth. No merit!

'One thing i KNOW is that our current system is not working and one of these ideas should be implemented.

From who's perspective?? I'll argue from management it is working fine.... Seniority is not stopping them from getting the pilots they want. (pay is)

The senior guys have no problem with it... It only seems to be the mid to junior guys....


Waveflyer... you need to have a more convincing argument...