For Pilots, Dreams Run Into Reality

[T-Bags]

In the end the ticket purchaser will determine how much you are pay

Kind of the same way they determine how much jet fuel costs huh...

 

[AdlerDriver]

Anyone else see the guy's name in the original article?

He needs to upgrade just so he can answer to, Captain Captain someday (esp. since he didn't get that in the USN)

 

[30West]

but how long can you make 777 captain pay on a 737?

Isn't the real question how long can you make 737 pay as a 777 captain?

 

[wms]

yes i do- and i'm on-board w/ your acting not talking agenda. Firmly agree.
I will tell you this- ALPA has a lot more support for this than they think-- ask every USAir pilot voting to decert right now-- the only thing they believe in more than USAPA is a NSL
Ask aloha pilots what they would think of a NSL
Ask ATA
Excuse me, if, a disenfranchised young pilot like myself doesn't keep calling to task every senior person on this board to take up the charge. Our seniority does not work in THIS DYNAMIC OF AN ENVIRONMENT. I'm young- but i've been around to know i'm smarter than most of you- follow your logic all the way to it's end-- Seniority disappearing in mergers and bankruptcies and scope reliefs will NOT STOP until we set up a system where it doesn't BENEFIT management to use it against us.

The environment is RIGHT= for the first time in the 30 years since deregulation- there is enough being held up and enough failings to argue successfully for a national seniority list.

A national seniority list, so after searching hard for the best company to work for you can be displaced from a great company to the street by a guy who chose to work at another airline that went out of business. Pilots won't buy it, and airlines won't buy it because of the cost of being forced to retrain pilots they were forced to take because of another airlines failure.

Won't happen. Displacements within a company are a nightmare enough, with domicile changes, etc. Displacements within an industry would be a catastrophe.

 

[LearLove]

Yeah, and Ernest Gann left the airlines, walking away from American Airlines . . . . and on to bigger and better things, as an author, sailor, and screenwriter. Quite a life, and quite a guy.

Those of you who haven't read his books might pick up a copy of "Fate is the Hunter" followed by his autobiography, "A Hostage to Fortune".

Ernest was the "real deal", like Hemingway, but without the bullfighting.

yes I've read his books - you forget, he "walked away" from AA for a shot a "super senority" at a steamship line. It didn't work out. He wound up flying for a charter operater (forrunner or some relation to present day World Airlines). I believe he said something to the effect about "thoes who try to defy the numbers will become hyenias themselves"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

T-bags = you have assumptions that under a NSL a senior pilot would have to interview. ie: do you have to interview w/ the DC chief pilot if you want to transfer in from Chicago? No- there simply has to be an opening. The biggest roadblock to a NSL are the assumptions that individual pilots have about how it will work.

How? How do you set it up so we can move from one company to another? Don't you think CorpAmerica will have something to say about the ability to change employers?

Do you think CEO's really care who is flying their a/c? From experience- pilot recruitment offices are an expense- all they need are pilots that fill their insurance needs and get through training in the average time- that's it. We ARE FUEL to them. An expense required to get the a/c from A to B. They want that expense to be as cheap as possible.

You are dealing with a long standing history. Legacy Carriers like UAL, DAL, CAL, NWA, AMR liked to advertise that thier pilots are the best. Of course this isn't prevelent today... but the idea of seeking out thru interviews and hiring your own is somewhat of an ownership mentality with each airline.

How are you going to convince an airline to give up owenership of who it hires to fly its jets?

Rez- how did we convince companies to adopt the seniority system to begin with? Don't fool yourself- our seniority system creates a ripple affect in training costs that is very expensive. Our seniority system is also causing so much strife that mergers are being held up. We're affecting the airline industry in a huge way.

Mergers aren't being held up... they might not be as efficient....

Here is another problem you create with your NSL and ability to move around.....

If a senior group of pilots sees that thier company is going to collapse, then they will use thier senoirity to go find a better carrier. Now where do the junior pilots at the good carrier go to? The only jobs left would be junior slots at the poor carrier. Why?

All you've done is created a windfall for senior pilots at a weak company, at the expense of junior pilots at a strong company.. AND you've created many training events!! Because the new top 200 pilots want the Captain slots on the bigger jets vacated by the original 200. But wait.. senior pilots to the New 200 at another company want those 200 slots...

The way to mitigate that is status pay. Regradless of equipment... a US Air Line Captain makes 150,000K. An FO makes 80,000.

So... a BE-1900 and a B747 Captian 150K.
and an SF340 and A330 FO makes 80K.

Or do you think training events are not needed?

Under a NSL, there would be a training cost incentive to increase wages to retain pilots. Seniority would mean something as everyone would be in their natural position. Aviation will be growing= and at least under a NSL- the appropriate pilots would be the ones who got furloughed- ie: kids out of college- not senior Aloha/ATA pilots and 35-40 yo ex regional captains.

Appropriate? Why should a college kid have to pay for Aloha's CEO's inability? That is a core question. Why is an Aloha pilot entitled to a FedEx job over the junior pilot at FedEx?

Are you saying that a NSL would cause growth? What happens once everyting stabilizes? Would the NSL continue the growth?

Think also of the security of diversifying your career that much. Diversifying the type of flying. The diversity of bases now opened up to everyone. The diversity of company cultures now opened up.

Companies take pride in thier culture even though its BS. Why would a company want thier culture opened up to anyone? If they didn't care then just about anyone could get hired anywhere... but there seems to be somewhat of a culture puzzle to figure out...to get hired..

Think of how much more control you'll have over your life knowing that once you gain seniority- you will not lose it unless the entire market for pilots decreases- which is not predicted to happen. Our current system is SO negative- and so unfair=- that when compared to the benefits- we have the environment to work the problem and finally get it done.

All you are doing is just re arranging the deck chairs. There are still only so many jobs... but all you want to do is make the junior guys system wide or nationally pay for the mistakes of CEO's locally.

I am not sure that is fair. In away that is age discrimination.

What criteria must one have to get a union card/number? can a MIL guy get one then go fly 20 years in the USAF and then get out and be a B787 Captain at NorthDelta? If 20 years at a MIL job would not count towards his NSL, then whats the point? That is what happens now...anyway...

T-bags:
Again- those are assumptions and problems to work out.

That is the real kicker... more later...

In all honesty- that's not the real question. The real one is that if we set guild payrates- which i agree is a start-just not an end solution- you're asking pilots at weak companies to put their company at risk and not do everything possible to save it. Everyone is scared out of their mind not to just lose pay- but lose the schedule and life.
If their company goes under- they will lose that schedule- and many pilots have lost their family b/c of that too- It's not an end all solution unless we can protect pilots from companies going out of business too.

Sounds ok.. but at whose expense will we protect those pilots. If at the gov'ts expense.. that is socialism.

So is it at another pilots expense?

Not to mention all the pilots criss-crossing the skies on bad commutes b/c their company pulled out of cities where we had roots. How many AAA pilots have houses in PIT and San Diego still? How many CAL pilots w/ houses in DEN?

So if 200 pilots at AAA see the writing on the wall and use thier NSL to go to FedEx... where do the bottom 200 FDX pilots go?

And what triggers the ability for senior AAA pilots to take thier portable seniority with them? Will there be quarterly bids? Yearly? An economic event?

W/ a NSL you just bid for whatever company is close to where you live.

Why? Maybe I like living in ATL but the schedules out of ORD suit me fine?

You hold what you hold and all that needs to happen is have the market go up for pilots.

I can tell you if the market goes up for pilots many will forget a NSL. The NSL is just a response to regression... more pilots having to share a smaller peice of the pie. Once growth returns and their is enough pie for all... NSL loses support...

In addition, Hope has its place.... but it seems your NSL depends too much on hope... 'that the market goes up...'

You can choose to be a turboprop captain if you like if it gets you the schedule and base you want- if you'd rather fly widebodies around the world- than bid that-

You still haven't convinced me how management and gov't are going to accept all this....

But this idea that one pilot is better than another- Regional vs Major, TP vs Jet, Military vs Civilian, Wide vs Narrow, Capt vs FO - for the most part is really, really invalid. We need to all get to a place where we respect ALL pilots- 172 to PA44 to F16 to RJ to 777- they all have their challenges and all can kill or violate you if not done well.

Agreed! But you can't legislate respect or mandate respect with a NSL. Respect is a personal choice. It really depnds on how good of a job our parents did...

To answer one of your questions- i'd say the fairest way is to go DOH from the time you joined a 121/union job or when you passed military flight school, then subtract months/years when you weren't actively flying. That respects all sides as equally as we can. And yes- i would think that you should build seniority in our union while serving in the military. I'd question anyone who disagrees w/ that- and i'm a civilian. But it would all have to be worked out. None of the problems are bigger than the ones our current system provide us. Remember that- and we can work out the rest.

It all comes down to CorpAmerica and money. How are you going to get them to pay for what your understand to be thier share of this??!



I am accused of being an ALPA cheerleader.

The reason why I am an ALPA cheerleader is because regardless if NSL is a good idea or not... nothing is going to happen until we have leverage. As long as we continue to the fly jets day in and out there is no motivation for CorpAm and gov't to do a damm thing.


20,000 pilots in uniform with hats, on the The Mall infront of the Captial will speak loud and clear. Basically what that means is everyone else is flying. If we don't get some action from gov't and CorpAm then we'll hold another demonstration... with 40,000 pilots. 40,000 pilots is basically a shut down of the US Air Transporation System. A percentage of flights might operate.....

Now you have the attention of the gov't and CorpAm.

The question is.... HOW are WE going to get the leverage of 20,000 then 40,000? Only a unified pilot group. You can't sit around waiting for "leadership" to make the move. Grow a pair and show the leadership that when they charge out of the foxhole, WE, the membership is racing to get ahead of the leadership to get to the fight first.

Only when 20,000 to 40,000 pilots show up on The Mall will we be able to take a blank check from Gov't and CorpAm and fill it out.

So... if you want a NSL, or whatever you think we need, the only way to do it is unification.

Wanna pom pom?

 

[Lear70]

In the end the ticket purchaser will determine how much you are paid. Sure you can put together some system that guarantees a pay increase across the pilot wide ranks, But if the airlines have to raise prices to do this, there will less travelers, equals fewer flights, equals fewer jobs.

I love picking on you, because you'll pick back, it'll be respectful, and we can go drink beer later...

You don't know what that breaking point is these days, neither do I, and neither does any airline CEO. They've been so loathe to raise ticket prices that we're almost getting to the point of customers believing they're ENTITLED to cheap tickets.

The problem starts at the top, but I'll get to that later.

For the guys that keep their jobs it would be great news. Again the seniority systems would protect those at the top.

And that's the problem with an NSL. I've thought quite a bit about this, as I thought it was a good idea and wanted to flesh it out: how to implement it, how to get membership AND management to buy off on it, and it's just not workable for everyone.

1. It doesn't work for membership for the reason that YIP just listed. Stop and think for a minute what would be going on right now if we had a NSL. Aloha, ATA, Champion, and Skyway just booted over 1,000 pilots to the street.

Take all those guys and put them in positions at NWA, DAL, UAL, UAir, and SWA have hired over the last 1-2 years. What happens to THOSE pilots who are more junior than those permanent furloughees? They get furloughed themselves. So now they get to displace pilots back at the regionals where they left... Then those junior guys at those regionals boot ANOTHER set of regional F/O's (the lowest seniority pilots in the system)... To the streets. Just to try to start over again in 3-5 years when this cyclical industry "reboots".

You tell me how you get 21,000 pilots to buy off on a 3-tier displacement to jobs they hated when it's all said and done. Everyone will suffer... except the senior 1/2 of the NSL.

2. Airline management will never go for it because of three major issues, 2 of which are already listed.

First, the above scenario. You just created a MINIMUM of $25,000 in training events for EVERY person who gets displaced. Not just the first wave, but the second wave of displacements, too. In this case, for rough numbers, say 3,000 pilots at $25,000 a pop = $75 Million.

Yeah, management will LOVE you for that one.

Then it's the extra money they will have to pay those pilots at their existing seniority over the new-hires they just hired at 1st year pay. Add another $75 Million to the pile over the next several years.

Then there's the culture issues. What's the failure rate of interviews at SWA and FDX? Hint: it's over 60%. Why? Culture. Whether you want to believe it or not, management DOES care about corporate culture (middle management who does all the hiring). The customer may not give a rat's, but that HR manager and V.P. of HR sure as heck does.
That's why, after careful consideration, I've abandoned the idea of a working NSL plan. If you have ideas that can solve ALL of the above in a PEACEFUL way, please list them out (don't count on forcing it through negotiations, that will never work - I can explain why in another post if you want).

SOLUTION:

I believe a GUILD approach from within ALPA (if you can ever get the old farts in Herndon to sign off on it) is the best answer right now, combined with changes in Aviation bankruptcy laws and pension reform, plus changes on an FAR level to minimum standards for airline pilots.

Negotiate the BASE wage and work from a "bottom-up" approach to raising pay and benefits. Make senior pilots understand that the bottom has to be solidified before the roof can be raised. airTran pilots get it, for the most part. It's not a difficult concept and is easily understood by pilots.

Use ALPA-PAC and CAPA-PAC to accomplish two things: force changes in the bankruptcy and pension laws to restrict CEO's abilities to keep going through this "profit/rape/bankruptcy" cycle, and 2nd, change the FAR's to raise the minimum hiring requirement for ALL airlines to require the Multiengine ATP and lock the ATP requirements where they are so they can't be reduced.

No more bankruptcies to rape pensions, pensions get federally-insured at 100% instead of 30% and CEO's can't withdraw money when the pensions are "over-funded" because the stock market went up (right before it goes back down).

No more bankruptcies to gut contracts. If a CEO takes an airline into bankruptcy, when it emerges, he leaves, and NEVER gets to manage an airline again. EVER. Make it prohibitive to manage an airline into bankruptcy and CEO's will be forced to actually operate the airline PROFITABLY.

No more 500 hour wunderkids at Mesa and PCL. Go build time instructing in a 172, towing banners, dusting crops, whatever, until you have the MEL ATP.

It's a three-pronged approach, working within our own system, setting realistic goals, and making slow change in the House and Senate over the next 2-3 years.

Other than that, you're p*ssing in the wind. Too drastic a change at a time when a LOT of people will suffer financially because of the downturn we're swinging into. Too bitter of a pill to swallow, so pick a better flavor (change tactics).

p.s. I love my job too, even though it's been a VERY rocky career with some not-so-lucky choices. Boy Captain, I'd say you don't know how good you have it or how lucky you've been but, since I know you, I know you realize those things. Not all of us have had such great luck, but you know that, too...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

SOLUTION:

I believe a GUILD approach from within ALPA (if you can ever get the old farts in Herndon to sign off on it) is the best answer right now, combined with changes in Aviation bankruptcy laws and pension reform, plus changes on an FAR level to minimum standards for airline pilots.

One of the problems with seniority is the dispairity between the number one senior pilot and the most junior pilot.

A WB Capt at legacy airlines makes 200K-ish, has 4-6 weeks vacation, a sweet schedule, etc...

The NB FO at the same carrier makes 30K, works weekends, no or limited vacation, etc...

In Europe the dispairity is less. The most Senior Captain works Xmas everyother year, etc...


One way to unify us is to flatten the dispairity.

But this is America, and we are all about... I've got mine. HOW are we going to get the senior guys to give up the Ivory Tower?

Negotiate the BASE wage and work from a "bottom-up" approach to raising pay and benefits. Make senior pilots understand that the bottom has to be solidified before the roof can be raised. airTran pilots get it, for the most part. It's not a difficult concept and is easily understood by pilots.

Agreed!

Use ALPA-PAC and CAPA-PAC to raise the minimum hiring requirement for ALL airlines to require the Multiengine ATP and lock the ATP requirements where they are so they can't be reduced. No more 500 hour wunderkids at Mesa and PCL. Go build time instructing in a 172, towing banners, dusting crops, whatever.

I don't know about CAPA particaption rates but ALPA is 14%. Would increasing help?

It's a two-pronged approach, working within our own system, setting realistic goals, and making slow change in the House and Senate over the next 2-3 years.

agreed!


Waveflyer... here is the start... reducing the dispairity... make us all more equal between the most senior pilot to the most junior...

 

[Kugelblitz]

As the extraordinary amount of dissent in this thread demonstrates, the industry is in an extreme downward spiral and pilots are, frankly, to stupid and selfish to save it. We cannot see past the end of our nose, all we care about - as a group - is getting all of our toys at the expense of others (junior guys, quick cheap time at the expense of major pay rates, scabbing, etc.) and we really don't care much about anyone else.

I guess it is an illness that permeates our society, everyone in it for themselves, then run to church on Sunday and pretend they aren't selfish, or use affiliation with a group to excuse why I should be privaledged and others aren't. All this leads to is a sort of social cannibalism which is what has lead to the utter rending of this as a proud and decent profession.

Look at the navy captain in this article, I will just go to Compass, fly for 21K and move on as quick as I can. The problem is, once one agrees to work for that wage, the precedent has been set and you will never get away from lower wage demands by management following you all the way to the majors. That is exactly what has happened to our pay rates in the majors, amongst other things.

One of those other things being a 'game-like' attitude by management to pay us as little as possible so as to maximize profits for shareholders (read realistically as the top 10% of any corporate structure). How anyone in this day and age could somehow play along politically with parties (all 2 of them) that shamelessly cater to this income climate we are in (mgmnt income up over 200%, labor flat to down 40%) is beyond me. The need to be part of the organization or part of the 'old guard of the institution' I guess.

I just can't imagine how this industry, or for that matter, our greater economy, which our politicians have whored out from under us, will ever get better. There are times when I think we are living under a government that is as crooked as a banana republic, everyone available for the right price (see Virgin America or our version of NAFTA - open skies). And for the record, I am not only talking about our present 'administration' or only one level of government.

One more thought, when my grandfather (who raised me) fought in the second world war he had a home to come back too and worked in a factory job (he was infantry, not an officer) for 46 years. What does the Iraq war infantry person today have to look forward too? A house that has lost around 20% of its' value and no good wage/benefit jobs -unless you consider Walmart good- to be be had. NAFTA'd away by politicians who themselves may have been veterans. If these same soldiers that are heroes on Fox news today come home and protest this predicament, they will be derided by the same news channel tomorrow as liberals, socialist, communist wealth re-distributors, or what ever we call people who don't keep their mouth shut. The O'Reillys, Becks, Hannitys, and Limbaughs are doing just fine, so what is your probelm?

Okay, now I am done ranting. Been off of work with an illness for 2 weeks, under stimulated I suppose. Now to pay the price for letting my thoughts out amongst other pilots......

 

[dispatchguy]

Did you catch the name of the guy - Jason Captain?

"flying today is Captain Smith and First Officer Captain"

Thats like Corporal-Captain from that M*A*S*H episode so many years ago.

Or, in his brief after upgrade training "I'm Captain Captain"