For Pilots, Dreams Run Into Reality

[BOYCAPTAIN]

and so could you...but i don't spend my life whining about crap on a message board....good luck with that whole PG thing!:laugh:

 

[727C47]

delete.................

 

[T-Bags]

Guys, the National Seniority List (NSL) isn't the answer right now. A more workable solution is a Pilot's Guild, much like the American Medical Association or the Bar Association.

The idea is that the Guild sets a MINIMUM RATE OF PAY per AIRCRAFT, and PER SEAT. . . . . and the number is something like Delta Airlines 2001.

Your own Union can negotiate something higher, and better bennies and work rules, but NEVER LOWER. That takes pilot pay off the table, period. No more chipping in for gas.

The mechanics of it are that everyone is grandfathered in. Your Union still represents you, but the Guild sets the minimum hourly rate for ALL pilots for that equipment. Fly for less than that, and you are out of the Guild, and cannot work for any US airline again, period. It would be like practicing medicine without a license.

Later, we could start handing out seniority numbers, but to NEW members . . . in other words, the NSL part would benefit the next gerneration of aviators, but the pay would benefit all of us immediately.

Regards,
TW

Well Ty, you've pitched it, I've pitched it, and I think a few others have too...we still have the mental giants like "Rez" who dismiss it out of hand. NIH.

 

[tico]

Since we are blue collar workers. Always have been and always will be. why dont we look to the real trade unions for our guidance. The Carpenters and Joiners, The Steam Fitters, the Electricians, the Plumbers etc......All of those unions do all of the training for their members, handle the insurance, handle the retirements etc......They also set the standards for becoming an apprentice, a journeyman, a master and they set the standards for specific training cards such as scaffold erectors or boiler installers or staircrafters etc...They negotiate pay rates for each level, for each specialty etc...They set per-diem and cola rates and they also handle any type of reprimand, downgrade/ loss of specialty, exclusion and permanent expulsion. They negotiate how many of each specialty will be on each job etc....It is time to distance ourselves from the white collar scum bag types that have brought us this national disaster called the air traffic system/alpa/apa/ipa/npa/etc...etc..and become labor in our hearts and our minds and our souls......Lets negotiate with scythes and pitchforks and sledgehammers and wear boots to work and throw away our attachment to Delta and American and all the other silly ass airlines and just go to work for the Pilots just like my friends who work for the Carpenters and Plumbers and Electricians etc....we will never again face the ravages of a system that forces us to stay with a loser.........more later

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well Ty, you've pitched it, I've pitched it, and I think a few others have too...we still have the mental giants like "Rez" who dismiss it out of hand. NIH.

I don't dismiss it...

I just have not seen a workable implementation idea. No blue prints, no flowcharts, guides, manuals, higher math... whatever it takes to show pragmatic application....

Show me a workable plan and I'll help sell it....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Since we are blue collar workers. Always have been and always will be. why dont we look to the real trade unions for our guidance. The Carpenters and Joiners, The Steam Fitters, the Electricians, the Plumbers etc......All of those unions do all of the training for their members, handle the insurance, handle the retirements etc......They also set the standards for becoming an apprentice, a journeyman, a master and they set the standards for specific training cards such as scaffold erectors or boiler installers or staircrafters etc...They negotiate pay rates for each level, for each specialty etc...They set per-diem and cola rates and they also handle any type of reprimand, downgrade/ loss of specialty, exclusion and permanent expulsion. They negotiate how many of each specialty will be on each job etc....It is time to distance ourselves from the white collar scum bag types that have brought us this national disaster called the air traffic system/alpa/apa/ipa/npa/etc...etc..and become labor in our hearts and our minds and our souls......Lets negotiate with scythes and pitchforks and sledgehammers and wear boots to work and throw away our attachment to Delta and American and all the other silly ass airlines and just go to work for the Pilots just like my friends who work for the Carpenters and Plumbers and Electricians etc....we will never again face the ravages of a system that forces us to stay with a loser.........more later

Sounds good! What about ... the RLA.

Facing the ravages of a system that forces us to stay with a loser is by design! It was intended from the begining....

If you want to change it... then you are going to have to pry it from the dead cold fingers of the old white men that control the distribution of wealth in this country... and soon.... the globe.

Sounds good. Count me in....

 

[T-Bags]

Same Ol' Ty Webb...

HOW Ty.... How are we going to do the Guild?

Get your NPA 'on' and get your CAPA 'on' and get with ALPA and make it happen.

The problem is this...

All you guys come up with these great ideas... post on FI and then brush your hands clean... but nothing changes... And your actions suggests that if OTHERS would simply do as you suggest the world would be better....

At some point you have to put up or shut up...

I hope you put up.. I really do... cause I want to see improvement... but unworkable ideas are distracting, counter productive and regressive.

Put it up Ty!!

OK "Rez", I'll tell you the problem. YOU!! It's your dumb@ass arrogance. It's going to an F'n union meeting and feeling like I'm at cubscouts...where "proper parliamentary procedures" matter more than message...I'm just waiting for them to pull out the "cheer" box...Somehow you are of the ludicrous opinion that the only opinions that can be right are those of the "committee volunteers".

We have taken MASSIVE paycuts over the last 7 years. We've endured MASSIVE furloughs, and seen our QOL hit the sh1tter, yet you have the audacity to attack PROVEN methods that have been employed by SUCCESSFUL unions as "unworkable". GMAFB. Frankly, you (and those you think you represent) would be better served if you took a labor econ class and took a break from your "selfless" ALPA work.

 

[waveflyer]

yeah...i made the right choice! how is that arrogant? and if i retire at 65(which i won't..55 for me) that would be 40 years...and 30 as a widebody captain..i did a lot of research about FDX...made a great choice(knock on wood)...no arrogance though:beer:

It is a great choice. I'm stoked it's worked out for you. And i hope you have no debt so that if fedex and the cargo carriers go through changes- you'll still be good. In the late 90's you had pilots leaving fedex for AA, UAL, DAL- all regret it for sure- Do you think the average 1998 hire at UAL ever thought they'd see their job turn into what it has?

Be careful. Things change quick and fast and can have nothing to do w/ the research you did 10-20 years ago. But you're still stuck b/c of seniority.

Rez- Do you recognize our seniority system as a problem that is being used against us?
Ever heard of the idea that the first step toward a solution is to recognize the problem? I'll focus more on the solution on this forum- when i can just get people to recognize what the problem is. We do that- than we can put our heads together and come up w/ a solution. In the meantime =- i don't see you proposing anymore solutions than anyone else.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

OK "Rez", I'll tell you the problem. YOU!! It's your dumb@ass arrogance. It's going to an F'n union meeting and feeling like I'm at cubscouts...where "proper parliamentary procedures" matter more than message...I'm just waiting for them to pull out the "cheer" box...Somehow you are of the ludicrous opinion that the only opinions that can be right are those of the "committee volunteers".

We have taken MASSIVE paycuts over the last 7 years. We've endured MASSIVE furloughs, and seen our QOL hit the sh1tter, yet you have the audacity to attack PROVEN methods that have been employed by SUCCESSFUL unions as "unworkable". GMAFB. Frankly, you (and those you think you represent) would be better served if you took a labor econ class and took a break from your "selfless" ALPA work.

Fine.. you got a workable idea that will pass muster with a majority of pilot with different seniority?

I am on your side... but as I said... blanket broad brush statements like a National Seniority List or a Guild are great... but so is travel at the speed of light and perpetual motion.

Turn your anger into motivation. If these are great ideas with other unions.. then why are they not so with our union?

 

[T-Bags]

I don't dismiss it...

I just have not seen a workable implementation idea. No blue prints, no flowcharts, guides, manuals, higher math... whatever it takes to show pragmatic application....

Show me a workable plan and I'll help sell it....

Rez, WADR, Ty has articulated the concept. While I could spend hours trying to lay out the appropriate strategy in a monopsonistic industry and how, if done correctly, pilot jobs would rise, frankly, I don't think you'd get it.

 

[Furloughed80]

Maybe if we didn't hand out ATP licenses to anyone with a pulse we would be better off. It hard to negotiate better terms when you have people walking out the front door of a double-wide straight into the right seat of an RJ.

 

[waveflyer]

btw- I agree w/ Ty 100%
i still don't view a NSL as unworkable- but if we made the bottom job for an experienced pilot a livable wage- we'd have more pilots willing to take a stand on pilot pay than we do now.
Why i still agree w/ a NSL is b/c there will still be many who will sell out to keep their seniority and QOL. The pay will help our seniority situation- but it doesn't solve it.

 

[waveflyer]

maybe if that RJ was protected under the same union and on the same list as it's brand- the RJ guys would have more leverage--

Guys the 50 seaters are done w/ fuel this high- the time is now to set pay rates for the 70+seaters and get them on the property. That will help.

 

[T-Bags]

Fine.. you got a workable idea that will pass muster with a majority of pilot with different seniority?

I am on your side... but as I said... blanket broad brush statements like a National Seniority List or a Guild are great... but so is travel at the speed of light and perpetual motion.

Turn your anger into motivation. If these are great ideas with other unions.. then why are they not so with our union?

You need to understand where I'm coming from. I've got about as many hours in economics classes as you have in an airplane. I will readily acknowledge that explaining economics to the average pilot is like explaining our profession to the general public ("but they only work 20 hours a week...."). So a couple things:
1. I don't support a national seniority list. A national seniority list is the quickest way to prevent senior pilots from getting another job. What interview Capt in his right mind would hire some schmoe SENIOR to him. I wouldn't. The fix that needs to be made is the pay charts need to be flattened. Maybe moving to another airline wouldn't be so F'n tough if you STARTED at the GUILD MINIMUM of $120 an hour (guppy FO). The problem is we want him to start at $25 an hour so that he can cross subsidize a Capt's pay (ain't seniority grand?). Plus, seniority isn't worth a nickel. Pax don't care what your seniority number or years of service are. Flatten the F'n Charts!
2. As UAL, DAL, AMR, SWA, CAL, and NWA go, so goes the rest of the industry. If you get the biggest airlines on board, the rest will fall in line (it's a thing called "mixed strategy equilibrium", ask me about why the keys on a keyboard are where they are one day, and maybe it'll make sense). This ain't rocket science, but then again, the union eventual loses a lot of work WRT to "section 3" in the contract, and would actually have to do more of the other sh1t like looking out for the pilots day to day....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez- Do you recognize our seniority system as a problem that is being used against us?

Yes, but it also works well for us in times of growth.

Ever heard of the idea that the first step toward a solution is to recognize the problem? I'll focus more on the solution on this forum- when i can just get people to recognize what the problem is.

I agree it is a problem. I am ready to fix it. As you said there is more momentum for a NSL now than ever.

We do that- than we can put our heads together and come up w/ a solution. In the meantime =- i don't see you proposing anymore solutions than anyone else.

Agreed. But I am not saying a NSL is workable. It is very difficult. If you think AAA/AWA and NWA/DAL is hard then try to merge 61,000 pilots!!

What is your path to implementation?

• Flightinfo following?

• LEC meetings? Resolutions?

• Picketing?

• CapHill legislation?

• Politiking?

Internal: first you have to have a workable idea that doesn't screw too many pilots. Then you have to sell the idea to 61,000 and convince them. Once that is done you have to convince the leadership to make the next move: external, That is the hard part.

Next... the really hard part is convince CorpAmerica and gov't. Good Luck. An analogy would be a group of indentured servants trying to convince thier masters to release them from their contracts. Why would they do that?

What advantage would management have in agreeing to a NSL? Or a Guild.

Management wants pilots to be furloughed often. They love first year pay and benefits.


Don't make me out to be tha bad guy cause I am asking hard questions.... Cause if you can't answer the questions here... how can you make take it further...

If you got a workable idea.. I am all for it... and I'll help you sell it... Ive been furloughed 2x in the last seven years. 2008 might be the worst year yet...