For All Frac Pilots

[DO-82 driver]

Walsh....I understand where you are coming from. I commuted 3 hours for 2 years and 2 1/2 hours for 5 years before my contract allowed me to report to my local airport 12 miles away. I am truely hopefull that NJA's next contract will allow that for all on the property.

I'm not too hopeful for a fractional jump seat agreement between us and the majors and I am sure that our respective management teams will not intervene on our behalf to try and secure some kind of agreement.

 

[Dep676]

What are the chances that we ALL could land a JS agreement with the Majors/LCC/Regionals? I know with they way our schedules go that it will be hard but I think if all of us come together as an industry that we could do this.

Screw that noise. I for one like getting the airline miles and upgrades. I have gone on two vacations for free because of the miles. Plus two tickets for a family member to make a funeral.

 

[bailout]

Hes not talking about when the company travels you, he is talking about riding somewhere for free, as in visiting/vacationing.. Unless you came from a 121 background, its hard to really understand what a huge benefit JS can be.. ALot of guys i flew with were gone every other week, going somewhere...

 

[glasspilot]

Here's some issues as I see 'em;

1. Reciprocity; We can reciprocate on dead legs. We can be members of CASS if management is willing to foot the bill. Yes, we could be repositioned en route, but so can the 121 guys. It's happened to me where I commute from MCO to ORD and divert to IND. Then the flight from IND is full and I lose my jumpseat. Left high and dry. Had to rent a car and continue to ORD. Thankfully my company had a commuter clause and I was okay. (lost money though)

2. Convenience. Sure it's a pain for them to get to the smaller airports and FBOs to catch a ride that may or may not be available. But the same thing happens with the cargo carriers. FedEx is on the wrong side of the airport and getting on is a pain. But it is possible so the reciprocity applies. You know there are a ton more FedEx pilots on Airliners than Airline Pilots on FedEx flights.

3. Paid tickets. I think this is a real concern. If we had unlimited jumpseat access and our companies knew it then it would be VERY tempting to save a MAJOR expense and require us to commute on our own dime (jumpseat).
I know people have a desire to jumpseat and I agree it would be nice for the few times a year I did it for personal reasons, but the risk is very great in my opinion. Since paid tickets and accumulated miles are so important to me I'd just assume leave well enough alone and not upset the apple cart.

...just my two cents.

 

[walshsfly]

If we had unlimited jumpseat access and our companies knew it then it would be VERY tempting to save a MAJOR expense and require us to commute on our own dime (jumpseat).

That's not what jump seating is about. The companies couldn't do that. And if they tried we just say no get me a ticket. Jump seating is just to get to work not to position while at work. If you don't understand what jump seating is all about ask someone that knows, don't just put out a blanket no, it makes you look stupid.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Let's bring this thread back to its original thought.....

Who, amongst all the fractionals is going to organize and take the first steps toward this jumpseat agreement? I don't see anyone willing to step forward and get the ball rolling.

I,certainly, have absolutely no interest in EVER jumpseating again. If I go on vacation I'm not going to risk missing a cruise ship or one day of rest and relaxation on a beach because a flight was oversold or becasue I got bumped by a pilot from the company I was trying to get a ride on.

Jumpseating is great for the single person.....If you're married you had better buy a ticket!!!!! or suffer the potential consequences.

Jumpseating for fractional guys....its a nice thought but I'm going to bet it will never happen.

 

[glasspilot]

That's not what jump seating is about. The companies couldn't do that. And if they tried we just say no get me a ticket. Jump seating is just to get to work not to position while at work. If you don't understand what jump seating is all about ask someone that knows, don't just put out a blanket no, it makes you look stupid.

Every time I go to work and go home I use a paid ticket. It's not such a stretch that the company would try to get us to use a jumpseat.

As for the "blanket no". I ended with its MY TWO CENTS. Like it or not others get to have opinions.

Hope that wasn't too stupid for you.

 

[theskyking]

Every time I go to work and go home I use a paid ticket. It's not such a stretch that the company would try to get us to use a jumpseat.

As for the "blanket no". I ended with its MY TWO CENTS. Like it or not others get to have opinions.

Hope that wasn't too stupid for you.

A person getting themselves to work is commuting. The company moving us A to B is deadheading. That's expressly against most if not all jumpseat agreements. These agreements are in place for the convenience of the crewmembers, not the company. If the crew of the plane you are jumpseating on found out you were deadheading, not commuting, you would be kicked off in a heart beat.

 

[NJAPLT]

I was in a situation (with Great Lakes Airlines) that involved this issue of companies pressuring pilots to jumpseat rather that buy a ticket.

I was coming off of TDY from Ohare, and the company provided me a standby ticket. It was a boarding class 10 standby ticket, even travel agents were ahead of me (I had over 200 people on standy ahead of me that day, I think about 50 were bp9's I was the only bp10; I looked at the printout at the gate.) All the seats were full, I hadn't been home in a month, and if I was unable to get back home, I would not get the days off restored or extra pay because I was under guarentee.

Well, I got myself home by jumpseating (better for me) but the company saved whatever they paid for that worthless airline standby ticket. I'm sure that was their plan all along.

They tried a couple other times to have me jumpseat to go to another domicile and pick up planes, I refused, got a worthless standby ticket, and when the plane departed without me, I lost hundreds of dollars because I didn't actually fly the trips I was suppose to on the other end. If I had just jumpseated out I would have not lost the pay. (there were open jumpseats up front, but all of the passenger seats were full.) This was before jumpseaters needed cabin space after 9/11.

Some companies will try to use every tool they can to save money, and if that includes putting presure on a pilot to jumpseat, so be it.

I ran into a pilot at O'hare (I forget the name of the company, a smaller cargo outfit.) They were jumpseating on United, but when I pointed out that American also had a flight that went to the same place, he said they were on the "Banned" list over there because their company got caught making the cargo pilots use the jumpseat to deadhead.

It would be nice if everyone had a strong union that wouldn't allow for the jumpseats to be used for the benefit of the company, but that is not the case industry wide.

Glasspilot is right, if all of the fractionals get a jumpseat benefit, I can see companies trying to presure pilots to use it rather than a revenue ticket, even more of a chance in non-union fractional company (just like the commuter and cargo examples I mentioned above.)

That being said I wouldn't mind getting jumpseat benefits again, I have no problems flying any pilot on the dead legs that we do: airline, other fractional, scenic tour, cfi, charter, military, etc. I would just ask for two things:

1. To be able to ride on their plane in return (even for just a scenic flight.)
2. Jumpseating would have to be an extra benefit, I would not give up any benefit, pay, etc. we have now to get the chance to fly standby.

 

[glasspilot]

I don't know why you guys are posting like your teaching me about how a jumpseat works. I am fully versed on the do's and dont's of jumpseat travel.

Go back and read my post again. I said it's not too much of a stretch for a frac company to try to save a ton of cash by having us jumpseat to work. The only sticking point would be the definition of domicile. If your going from your house to your domicile for work that would qualify under any program as a legal jumpseat. If you go from domicile to a city to pick up a plane that is a reposition for revenue and strictly forbidden. Where the problem comes in is what if the company started a "floating domicile" or some such policy. The regionals have been doing that for years to screw pilots out of hotels. I would bet a cupcake that some frac operator would try it to save a very significant company expense by doing this.

And if you think this position makes me look stupid then stay away from mirrors.


...dumbass

 

[NJAPLT]

Glasspilot, I agreed with you that some frac companies (along with current companies that have jumpseats, see my personal example with GLA in my post above) would take advantage of any jumpseat system.

 

[glasspilot]

I know you were agreeing with my point. I was refering to the two posts above yours.

 

[Wiggums]

Does anyone understand the fractional business?

There is no possible way a company like FlexJet or NetJets would try to encourage you to jumpseat when you should be on a paid ticket. This isn't like Great Lakes where if the crew member doesn't make it then you just send the customer on the 5:40 instead of the 3:40. If a trip is missed then along with a pissed off owner are out $50k for a charter. You'd have to save many $300 airline tickets to make up for that. Same on the end of your trip, if you get home one minute past midnight then it's an overtime day.

I think you would probably encounter the opposite problem. Crew members could cancel their full fare tickets, keep the credit, and then jumpseat to the aircraft. However, I know that if you missed a trip for doing something like that you'd probably be looking for new employment.

Full fare one way tickets when positioning aren't going away. Your airline miles are safe.

 

[glasspilot]

Now those are good points. I've changed positions.

 

[cush]

I think you would probably encounter the opposite problem. Crew members could cancel their full fare tickets, keep the credit, and then jumpseat to the aircraft. However, I know that if you missed a trip for doing something like that you'd probably be looking for new employment.

Makes no sense. Keep what credit? We wouldn't benefit whatsoever. You don't expense airline ticket fares. They are paid for by a third party and direct billed to the company. Leaves me wondering if you understand the fractional business.

 

[bailey3083]

I am waiting for the OK from some for me to start contacting airlines to see if a JS is possible. Just simple "chatting" with different people I honestly think JetBlue, AirTran, and other LCC's will agree to JS.
I am interested in this for 1) Allows people to actually commute to work 2) Makes all of us alittle more attractive to possible new hires.

Bailey

P.S. I am looking to do this for all fractional pilots as if we at Flex are successfully ( or another fractional) it gives the other guys leverage with management to follow the lead.

 

[CFIse]

Wel since we do not have a jumpseat..it would be tough..but, I am all for allowing my fellow pilots a ride on any repositioning flight. Not the best way to get around and a tad risky in actually getting to your destination...but why not.

It's not very likely. You can't really offer a reciprocal agreement. Jumpseating is really used by pilots to commute to work, other uses are just additional perks. Airlines can offer reciprocal agreements, you can jumpseat on mine if I can jumpseat on yours. An agreement with a group of fractionals based on the "if we're going and we're empty and we don't cancel or change our destination mid-flight and...." isn't all that useful.

It doesn't matter to me - I'll carry anybody in the jumpseat, but unless you can resolve the reciprocity thing then I think your priority would have to be pretty low which begs the question how useful it would be for you.

But hey - get together, ask the jumpseat coordinators, who knows what you can pull off.

 

[CFIse]

Yes commuting sucks, but so does a 5 hour drive to work because you don't live in domicile.

If I could commute I'd have my paperwork in with the fractionals in a heartbeat - because that's a decision I would make for my life choices. But I can't commute and so.....

Crew re-positioning (deadheads) aren't going to use the jumpseat, and the first fractional pilot found using the jumpseat for a re-position instead of a paid ticket would destroy the idea for everybody else. So I wouldn't even think about that option.

 

[FLYLOW22]

The ability to get a JS agreement at NJA is/was very real.

Management shot down the approved JS protocol a few years ago.

They didn't want "non NJA pilots on Owner aircraft".

Whatever.

P.S. This topic comes up every once in a while. Reciprocity or not, the JS protocol WAS approved by all other airlines out there (don't know the details.. lower priotity JS??). The complete package was offered up to the NJA Gods and it was rejected after management promised to support it.

P.P.S. The issue of in-flight diversions was also dealt with to the satisfaction of all involved. IBT 1108 would foot the bill of getting the offline JSer to their destination by plane, train or automobile (and sometimes boat) at our cost.