For All Frac Pilots

[bailey3083]

What are the chances that we ALL could land a JS agreement with the Majors/LCC/Regionals? I know with they way our schedules go that it will be hard but I think if all of us come together as an industry that we could do this.

 

[DrProc]

Could you reciprocate and offer airline pilots a seat in your airplane? Does it seem fair that you can ride in their airplane, but they can't ride in yours?

 

[flyipilot]

Wel since we do not have a jumpseat..it would be tough..but, I am all for allowing my fellow pilots a ride on any repositioning flight. Not the best way to get around and a tad risky in actually getting to your destination...but why not.

 

[skiandsurf]

Could you reciprocate and offer airline pilots a seat in your airplane? Does it seem fair that you can ride in their airplane, but they can't ride in yours?

I have heard of a couple of stories.....

1. Two NJs pilots flying on UAL to SFO. From there they are to ferry a plane to LAS. They were talking to the UAL FAs, and they were going to be commuting home to LAS. After landing the pilots called a chief pilot to get approval to take the FAs on the NJ plane. Yes, they did take them.

2. Same type of story, but it was a SWA flight and the SWA pilot got the ride home on the NJ plane.

We can take people, but it is very hard to get the ferry flights and the airports all lined up.

 

[Twotter76]

As I understand it, our jumpseat committee (yes we DO have one) actually had a whole program worked out where we would be able to reciprocate with the understanding that our destinations can and occasionally do change. CASS access would not be a problem as it is open to those with a 135 cert who are willing to pay for it. The hangup came in getting our management to sign off on it, which they currently seem unwilling to do. I would love nothing more than having jumpseat accesss again and have repeatedly offered to volunteer to help the committee but it seems we are at an impasse with the company for now. I'm sure that its probably something we could negotiate for in the next round but quite honestly, i'd rather get a big raise.

 

[XTW]

CS does have formal JS agrements in place with a few carriers. It is open for position flights. Understand that the destination can change at any time on repo flights. Also remember that all frac flights leave from one of the FBOs on the field.


X

 

[bailey3083]

CS does have formal JS agrements in place with a few carriers. It is open for position flights. Understand that the destination can change at any time on repo flights. Also remember that all frac flights leave from one of the FBOs on the field.

X

So you were able to get a JS agreement that is great. I am wanting to make that move here at Flex but always get the " It cant be done since there is no guarantee we can get them home. So with the knowledge that CS has a JS, I can push forward. Mind me asking with who?

Bailey

 

[bailey3083]

Could you reciprocate and offer airline pilots a seat in your airplane? Does it seem fair that you can ride in their airplane, but they can't ride in yours?

Well Doc we can allow people to catch a ride with us but there is those few times when we are rerouted while airborne so you might not get home and that is the biggest issue. The second biggest issue is that we can be scheduled to go out empty to suddenly have a live leg do to MX or some other factor.
So I guess my biggest questions is since almost every 121 carrier has an agreement with each other would they be willing to accept an agreement with some one they might only be able to use 30% of the time?

Bailey

 

[cush]

No thanks. I'll gladly buy a ticket.

 

[hammer2]

.........

 

[BeechScrub]

Most of the 121 cargo/charter operators have agreements and many are in CASS. It's pretty complicated for them to receiprocate as well, but I always give'm a ride. For me it's about courtesy and karma. I don't care if they can reciprocate, if they need a ride and I can legally give'm one, they are on. I wish more people extended that to the fracs. I know the few times NJA guys asked me for a ride, we took'm no problem.

 

[Seat 0A]

ooops

 

[bailey3083]

No thanks. I'll gladly buy a ticket.

Cush this is not ment for you to travel with you family places . The idea of getting us a JS is more for those who do not want to live in one of the bases and now either drive hours or buys tickets to get to work. It is also for people like me who have to travel to see children many times a month.

Bailey

 

[cush]

Cush this is not ment for you to travel with you family places . The idea of getting us a JS is more for those who do not want to live in one of the bases and now either drive hours or buys tickets to get to work. It is also for people like me who have to travel to see children many times a month.

Bailey

Sorry dude. Maybe I was being a little self centered in my response. Two years of commuting with a prior 121 job and almost 4 commuting to CMH for EJA/NJA will make one less than enthusiastic about getting on another jumpseat. I voted "no" on the last contract and one of the primary reasons was the HBA/domicile issue....
Lest I forget them now.

 

[bailey3083]

Sorry dude. Maybe I was being a little self centered in my response. Two years of commuting with a prior 121 job and almost 4 commuting to CMH for EJA/NJA will make one less than enthusiastic about getting on another jumpseat. I voted "no" on the last contract and one of the primary reasons was the HBA/domicile issue....
Lest I forget them now.

No worries just wasnt sure if you understand why I am looking for a JS agreement.

 

[doylehargraves]

Why would you want this?? We have PAID ASSIGNED SEATS to/from work. Why would you WANT to commute? I understand your situation but, commuting sucks.

 

[Wiggums]

Why would you want this?? We have PAID ASSIGNED SEATS to/from work. Why would you WANT to commute? I understand your situation but, commuting sucks.

Clearly you do not understand the situation.

 

[walshsfly]

doylehargraves[/LEFT];1259371]Why would you want this?? We have PAID ASSIGNED SEATS to/from work. Why would you WANT to commute? I understand your situation but, commuting sucks.

Yes commuting sucks, but so does a 5 hour drive to work because you don't live in domicile.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Walsh...just curious, when you took the job with NJA you were obviously aware of the travel time to and from your Domicile. Where you hoping for a change in the present Domicile system prior to the next contract ratification?


More than 65 people left NJA last year.....many of them hired only within the past year. I wonder how many were just "type" fishing and how many really couldn't do the commute for the long term?

 

[walshsfly]

First of all I don't work for them, I am at Flex. I wouldn't want to work under a contract (but that's not what this is about).

I did know about the drive time before taking the job, one could always hope for new domiciles to open, but that didn't stop me form taking the job. I have moved closer to my current domicile, and I hate living here. I mean seriously, who would want to live in NJ, I know I don't. I could think of a few hundred places I would rather live, but I am limited by my current choices of domicile. With Jump seat ability I could live anywhere I want, and commute to work. What a life that would be, best of both worlds.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Walsh....I understand where you are coming from. I commuted 3 hours for 2 years and 2 1/2 hours for 5 years before my contract allowed me to report to my local airport 12 miles away. I am truely hopefull that NJA's next contract will allow that for all on the property.

I'm not too hopeful for a fractional jump seat agreement between us and the majors and I am sure that our respective management teams will not intervene on our behalf to try and secure some kind of agreement.

 

[Dep676]

What are the chances that we ALL could land a JS agreement with the Majors/LCC/Regionals? I know with they way our schedules go that it will be hard but I think if all of us come together as an industry that we could do this.

Screw that noise. I for one like getting the airline miles and upgrades. I have gone on two vacations for free because of the miles. Plus two tickets for a family member to make a funeral.

 

[bailout]

Hes not talking about when the company travels you, he is talking about riding somewhere for free, as in visiting/vacationing.. Unless you came from a 121 background, its hard to really understand what a huge benefit JS can be.. ALot of guys i flew with were gone every other week, going somewhere...

 

[glasspilot]

Here's some issues as I see 'em;

1. Reciprocity; We can reciprocate on dead legs. We can be members of CASS if management is willing to foot the bill. Yes, we could be repositioned en route, but so can the 121 guys. It's happened to me where I commute from MCO to ORD and divert to IND. Then the flight from IND is full and I lose my jumpseat. Left high and dry. Had to rent a car and continue to ORD. Thankfully my company had a commuter clause and I was okay. (lost money though)

2. Convenience. Sure it's a pain for them to get to the smaller airports and FBOs to catch a ride that may or may not be available. But the same thing happens with the cargo carriers. FedEx is on the wrong side of the airport and getting on is a pain. But it is possible so the reciprocity applies. You know there are a ton more FedEx pilots on Airliners than Airline Pilots on FedEx flights.

3. Paid tickets. I think this is a real concern. If we had unlimited jumpseat access and our companies knew it then it would be VERY tempting to save a MAJOR expense and require us to commute on our own dime (jumpseat).
I know people have a desire to jumpseat and I agree it would be nice for the few times a year I did it for personal reasons, but the risk is very great in my opinion. Since paid tickets and accumulated miles are so important to me I'd just assume leave well enough alone and not upset the apple cart.

...just my two cents.

 

[walshsfly]

If we had unlimited jumpseat access and our companies knew it then it would be VERY tempting to save a MAJOR expense and require us to commute on our own dime (jumpseat).

That's not what jump seating is about. The companies couldn't do that. And if they tried we just say no get me a ticket. Jump seating is just to get to work not to position while at work. If you don't understand what jump seating is all about ask someone that knows, don't just put out a blanket no, it makes you look stupid.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Let's bring this thread back to its original thought.....

Who, amongst all the fractionals is going to organize and take the first steps toward this jumpseat agreement? I don't see anyone willing to step forward and get the ball rolling.

I,certainly, have absolutely no interest in EVER jumpseating again. If I go on vacation I'm not going to risk missing a cruise ship or one day of rest and relaxation on a beach because a flight was oversold or becasue I got bumped by a pilot from the company I was trying to get a ride on.

Jumpseating is great for the single person.....If you're married you had better buy a ticket!!!!! or suffer the potential consequences.

Jumpseating for fractional guys....its a nice thought but I'm going to bet it will never happen.

 

[glasspilot]

That's not what jump seating is about. The companies couldn't do that. And if they tried we just say no get me a ticket. Jump seating is just to get to work not to position while at work. If you don't understand what jump seating is all about ask someone that knows, don't just put out a blanket no, it makes you look stupid.

Every time I go to work and go home I use a paid ticket. It's not such a stretch that the company would try to get us to use a jumpseat.

As for the "blanket no". I ended with its MY TWO CENTS. Like it or not others get to have opinions.

Hope that wasn't too stupid for you.

 

[theskyking]

Every time I go to work and go home I use a paid ticket. It's not such a stretch that the company would try to get us to use a jumpseat.

As for the "blanket no". I ended with its MY TWO CENTS. Like it or not others get to have opinions.

Hope that wasn't too stupid for you.

A person getting themselves to work is commuting. The company moving us A to B is deadheading. That's expressly against most if not all jumpseat agreements. These agreements are in place for the convenience of the crewmembers, not the company. If the crew of the plane you are jumpseating on found out you were deadheading, not commuting, you would be kicked off in a heart beat.

 

[NJAPLT]

I was in a situation (with Great Lakes Airlines) that involved this issue of companies pressuring pilots to jumpseat rather that buy a ticket.

I was coming off of TDY from Ohare, and the company provided me a standby ticket. It was a boarding class 10 standby ticket, even travel agents were ahead of me (I had over 200 people on standy ahead of me that day, I think about 50 were bp9's I was the only bp10; I looked at the printout at the gate.) All the seats were full, I hadn't been home in a month, and if I was unable to get back home, I would not get the days off restored or extra pay because I was under guarentee.

Well, I got myself home by jumpseating (better for me) but the company saved whatever they paid for that worthless airline standby ticket. I'm sure that was their plan all along.

They tried a couple other times to have me jumpseat to go to another domicile and pick up planes, I refused, got a worthless standby ticket, and when the plane departed without me, I lost hundreds of dollars because I didn't actually fly the trips I was suppose to on the other end. If I had just jumpseated out I would have not lost the pay. (there were open jumpseats up front, but all of the passenger seats were full.) This was before jumpseaters needed cabin space after 9/11.

Some companies will try to use every tool they can to save money, and if that includes putting presure on a pilot to jumpseat, so be it.

I ran into a pilot at O'hare (I forget the name of the company, a smaller cargo outfit.) They were jumpseating on United, but when I pointed out that American also had a flight that went to the same place, he said they were on the "Banned" list over there because their company got caught making the cargo pilots use the jumpseat to deadhead.

It would be nice if everyone had a strong union that wouldn't allow for the jumpseats to be used for the benefit of the company, but that is not the case industry wide.

Glasspilot is right, if all of the fractionals get a jumpseat benefit, I can see companies trying to presure pilots to use it rather than a revenue ticket, even more of a chance in non-union fractional company (just like the commuter and cargo examples I mentioned above.)

That being said I wouldn't mind getting jumpseat benefits again, I have no problems flying any pilot on the dead legs that we do: airline, other fractional, scenic tour, cfi, charter, military, etc. I would just ask for two things:

1. To be able to ride on their plane in return (even for just a scenic flight.)
2. Jumpseating would have to be an extra benefit, I would not give up any benefit, pay, etc. we have now to get the chance to fly standby.

 

[glasspilot]

I don't know why you guys are posting like your teaching me about how a jumpseat works. I am fully versed on the do's and dont's of jumpseat travel.

Go back and read my post again. I said it's not too much of a stretch for a frac company to try to save a ton of cash by having us jumpseat to work. The only sticking point would be the definition of domicile. If your going from your house to your domicile for work that would qualify under any program as a legal jumpseat. If you go from domicile to a city to pick up a plane that is a reposition for revenue and strictly forbidden. Where the problem comes in is what if the company started a "floating domicile" or some such policy. The regionals have been doing that for years to screw pilots out of hotels. I would bet a cupcake that some frac operator would try it to save a very significant company expense by doing this.

And if you think this position makes me look stupid then stay away from mirrors.


...dumbass