Follow the Money--USAir and America West

[wndshr]

GL question??

question for GL


is there a majority of furloughees that are bypassing recall? somebody said that DAL was recalling at least two..maybe 3 to get 1?

 

[ivauir]

Can you think of a single liquidation that generated enough cash to fund the outstanding retirement obligations? Maybe it has happened, I don't know. I doubt shutting USAir down and selling it off three years ago would have changed the outcome as far as the defined benefit plans there are concerned.

Of course I cannot think of such an example; the law is structured so that the golden parachute crowd may raid/missmanage and underfund the pension plans willy-nilly. They are allowed to run a company into the ground with no thoughts as to long term viabiility, make promises (with no intention of keeping them), and borrow money they'll NEVER pay back. Then when their house of cards comes crashing down they declare BK, take their 4.5 MILLION bonus for less than two years of "work" nd leave the working stiffs with nothing. Maybe USAIR would have to liquidate long ago to meet their pension obligations, I don't know ... but I know what the word "obligation" means.

You've argued that it is the marketplace that has brought them down, but I contend that it is their manegment's inability to adapt to this marketplace that has brought them down. What gauls me is that our laws are structured to allow them to limp along sucking money out of anything in a hundered mile radius. I think the only winners here are the manegment guys.

My point is simply that this is wrong. I know I am tilting at windmills; it is the way the world works, but that doesn't make it right.
Yes, I know junior guys would suffer in the resulting liquidation; but in the grand scheme of things I'd rather be unemployed at 35 (BTW I was unemployed at 35 with a wife and and 2 kids) then lose my pension at 55.

 

[General Lee]

question for GL


is there a majority of furloughees that are bypassing recall? somebody said that DAL was recalling at least two..maybe 3 to get 1?

That may be true. The bottom guys on the list have been out the longest, and probably got another job. 400 were furloughed on Novemeber 1st, 2001. That will be 4 years this November. Most have moved on I am sure.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Mugs]

Ivauir,

It is the marketplace ultimately. Ever wonder why nobody is going to come out of this with a defined benefit pension plan? You can argue about incompetent management all you want. However, the fact is that the market no longer supports that type of benefit. Very few defined benefit plans have been started in the last 20 years, and many have been terminated. I guess it is easy to forget how difficult it is to adapt to the new market realities when you don't have such obligations built in to your structure to begin with. It is easy to yell about someone else not covering an obligation when you don't have such an obligation yourself. I find it ironic when those that work for companies that never had the large expenses associated with offereing such a benefit to decades of employees point fingers at the failings of those companies that did. I am not defending the management of U, UAL, or any of the other basket cases. However, suggesting that they somehow could have adapted to the new marketplace while maintaining the benefits of the old marketplace is ridiculous. The bar, unfortunately, has been reset. Even if the weaklings had shutdown 3 years ago, it is obvious what type of competition would have moved in to fill their shoes.

 

[ivauir]

... suggesting that they somehow could have adapted to the new marketplace while maintaining the benefits of the old marketplace is ridiculous...

Thusfar they've failed to adapt to the new market place AND failed to meet their obligations. I guess what we disagree on is the method used to adapt.

Peace