Flying Struck Work???

[time builder]

Okay, i'll bite. First of all it's not wrong, nor is it right for that matter. It's simply free market capitalism at work.

But, for the internet idiots here, i'll say it one last time. What's happening is not wrong or the fault of the pilots at Republic. It's simply a further reduction of our passion and livelihoods and just sad. . .

Seriously, folks are trying to call them scabs or alter-ego, whatever. If you want a single word, call it what it is: "outsourcing."

It's legal, it's common practice throughout the industry. You really think Republic is the first airline to contract for previously mainline held routes?

A large portion of the RJ's in the US were built to replace 727's that were retired shortly after 2001. Thank heavens for scope clause too, or else we'd see airlines outsourcing to "regionals" flying boeings and airbus.

In an ideal world, airlines would only outsource to take advantage of an operation they are unable to feasably provide (ie turboprop service). Unfortunately, we have such a pilot surplus that airlines abuse cheap labor, and outsource to save a few bucks.

 

[PCL_128]

Lawful strike? It's my understanding that if you are not in Sec 6 negotiations and under oversight of the NMB that a collective bargaining unit can strike anytime they want.

No, not even close. You can only strike when the NMB has released you. Period. Strikes outside of a lawful release by the NMB are prohibited by the RLA. The only possible exception is if your contract is abrogated by a bankruptcy court, but we haven't tested that legal theory, yet.

You may not be an official alter-ego, but you will be Doing Business As an alter-ego the first flight you take under Midwest colors. It's easy to say that you don't make the decisions, that your management does, but who is flying the airplane? In my book, that is a decision that you make! Even Dr. Phil could see through that one!

First, it isn't my company. I'm just defending these guys that are getting trashed unfairly. Second, what do you expect them to do? Refuse to fly? They'll get fired, and the law won't protect them since it won't be a legal strike. Don't fight battles that you can't win.

 

[Speedtape]

No, not even close. You can only strike when the NMB has released you. Period. Strikes outside of a lawful release by the NMB are prohibited by the RLA. The only possible exception is if your contract is abrogated by a bankruptcy court, but we haven't tested that legal theory, yet.



First, it isn't my company. I'm just defending these guys that are getting trashed unfairly. Second, what do you expect them to do? Refuse to fly? They'll get fired, and the law won't protect them since it won't be a legal strike. Don't fight battles that you can't win.

\

Regarding the strike, I think you are wrong.

Regarding getting fired for refusing to fly, if every pilot says NO, what are they going to do, fire all of them?

 

[Axel]

..................................http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/archive/winter1999art3.pdf

 

[Donsa320]

\

Regarding the strike, I think you are wrong.

Regarding getting fired for refusing to fly, if every pilot says NO, what are they going to do, fire all of them?

In a word, yes. Your choice is to work or resign. PCL128 is correct, don't pick fights you cannot win.

DC

 

[tyuwerty]

\

Regarding the strike, I think you are wrong.

Regarding getting fired for refusing to fly, if every pilot says NO, what are they going to do, fire all of them?

He is right about the strike. They can't just walk out.

The RAH pilots can't even agree on what color their union bag tags should be (red, yellow, green). You think they will all say "NO".

LMFAO!!!!

Not trying to slam on RAH here, I think you would be hard pressed to find 100% of any pilot group that would just "refuse" to fly.

 

[PCL_128]

Regarding the strike, I think you are wrong.

Yeah, I guess all that training I received from ALPA National on this subject when I was a rep was just wrong. I should have just called Speedtape and got his excellent legal opinion instead.

Regarding getting fired for refusing to fly, if every pilot says NO, what are they going to do, fire all of them?

Every pilot wouldn't refuse. Maybe 100 would, at most, if the effort was sufficiently organized at the grass roots. And yes, the company would certainly fire every last one of them. These emotional reactions to circumstances need to stop from pilots. You need to think things through and develop coherent strategies that will actually work. Grandiose dreams of 2000+ pilots refusing to fly work that they can't legally refuse are just counter-productive.

 

[Speedtape]

In a word, yes. Your choice is to work or resign. PCL128 is correct, don't pick fights you cannot win.

DC

Thats's weak! Yeah, let's just let management win and cannabilize our industry! Let's see--that makes us Tools!

Is your job safe?

 

[Speedtape]

Yeah, I guess all that training I received from ALPA National on this subject when I was a rep was just wrong. I should have just called Speedtape and got his excellent legal opinion instead.

Expert, maybe, you should go back and get some of that most excellent training. You may have missed something while in class.



Every pilot wouldn't refuse. Maybe 100 would, at most, if the effort was sufficiently organized at the grass roots. And yes, the company would certainly fire every last one of them. These emotional reactions to circumstances need to stop from pilots. You need to think things through and develop coherent strategies that will actually work. Grandiose dreams of 2000+ pilots refusing to fly work that they can't legally refuse are just counter-productive.

Sadly, you are probably correct. But it would not take 100 percent to make it work.

Quit lecturing me. You need to quit being so passive and so willing to grabbing your ankles. Is your job safe? There is nothing wrong with grandiose dreams. If a few, were not willing to dream--you certainly would be sitting and living in the dark. Maybe, the lightbulb will come on for you someday, Mr. Expert!

By the way, your alpa training qualifies you how to fill out an expense form and wear a silver pin!

 

[PCL_128]

Nevermind. I'm not going to argue with a fool.

 

[Avi8tor2000]

Nevermind. I'm not going to argue with a fool.

Probably the best idea.

It is frightening how many people work in this industry who simply don't know how it works, legally speaking. No matter how many people want to do what Speedtape is professing, it is simply not feasible. You need the law on your side or else you are fighting a losing battle.

I'm sure the pilots at RAH thank your understanding of this situation and hope its a common sentiment among the majority of Midwest pilots.

 

[Speedtape]

Nevermind. I'm not going to argue with a fool.

DITTO

 

[Full of LUV]

Wait a minute.....

Unfortunately, we have such a pilot surplus that airlines abuse cheap labor, and outsource to save a few bucks.

Wait a minute..... I thought there was a serious pilot shortage, hence the need for age 65! Now you say there is a pilot surplus?????? Does not compute!

 

[SF340Guy]

From an ALPA FAQ site: Why do I have to "Fly Now, Grieve Later" and why is my Union unable to stop this?

Simply put, the RLA and court decisions have held that employees must comply with an instruction from their direct supervisor, with a couple of exceptions. First, an employee may refuse an instruction that they reasonably believe to be unsafe. Second, an employee may refuse an order that is "clearly" a violation of the contract. Keep in mind, though, that if the Company can make a reasonable claim, whether they are right or wrong, that the Contract allows it, you should comply and grieve it later. In essence, the purpose of this rule applied to airlines is to keep planes moving and explains the overall purpose of the RLA. Thus, "fly now, grieve later" is a law and leaves a union unable to stop it.​

I am not sure what IBTs stance is, but isnt it ALPAs stated policy in contract violations, in cases involving unresolved issues, "Fly it, then grieve it, it is easier to fight a contract violation than a termination."

I was ALPA at a previous carrier, and we actually had a meeting with ALPA during indoc, (I know, a union showing up to greet its new members, shocking). That is what we were told at that time. Granted it was 2000, but that was the policy then. So can RAH pilots be held to a higher standard than ALPAs own policy?

 

[Axel]

Copied from an RAH internal bulletin board:

(Edited for brevity and to protect identities on a public board)

...a little guidance here if it is available, please....

...Those of us who were assigned Midwest trips (even though we tried to bid around them; ) are we to do the "fly it and grieve shuffle" or are we to refuse the flying as illegal...?

I would love to be told I am not to...

So what do we do? Gene's letter to BB is pretty clear that we consider this flying a violation of the contract. What is the position of the leadership regarding whether we have the legal standing to refuse it?

If we do not have the legal standing to refuse the flying, it would be a help to have documentation on letterhead stating the position of the leadership so I can display it (along with my copy of the grievance paperwork, my black arm band and my inverted American Flag) to the MEH crews....

 

[av8tor4239]

Alpa Sux

 

[248to2.8]

Like any union could do a better job in this situation. More like this industry and the people running these companies suck.