Flops TA

[ITFL]

One valid point to be made RE: the TA is that the pilots have NO authority in the hotel selection process. There is some kind of "recommendation" committee, but no rules in place as to what they can do....can they veto certain locations? Can they veto chains? Can they set a standard as to what pilots do and do not have to accept?

Seems to me that the Travel Committee (and other committees established in the TA) will have a lot power. The power that comes directly from the pilot group. The power that comes from a group working collectively toward a common goal. Remember what happened with that POS hotel in TEB a few years ago, now put along side that a committee that can directly lobby the company for change.

I think it's going to take a while for those of us who have never been a union to figure out how all of this works. But I know that our Negotiating Committee was advised by advisers who know exactly how unions work.

 

[ultrarunner]

So when do you vote ? !

 

[skyismyoffice]

By 3/31. Should be announced on 4/1.

 

[Frac Cap]

And we all know who will be the April fools if it is voted in.

 

[993_Pilot]

You're absolutely right. And does the TA do that in the short term? I think it does....

The TA does do a few things to improve our work conditions, but mostly it just locks in the conditions that we have now. That is worth something for sure, but not 6 to 7 years of substandard pay, which is what this contract would end up being before our second one is signed. That's the problem, it's not short term!

I'll be voting YES.

...and I'll be voting NO !

 

[ProFracPilot]

The TA does do a few things to improve our work conditions, but mostly it just locks in the conditions that we have now. That is worth something for sure, but not 6 to 7 years of substandard pay, which is what this contract would end up being before our second one is signed.

Please tell me, without using the words NetJets, CitationAir or FlexJet, what exactly is "standard" pay in this economic environment? 6-digit salaries at year 10 for a BJ or Phenom PIC are not realistic - at this time.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll restate my main point: If the TA is voted down we will go another year before we see another TA. The money left on the table now is irrecoverable and can not be made up over time. Self help will not be an option. There is no precedent in fractional operations to indicate that the NMB will be sympathetic to us (their reaction will be just the opposite). We will not be offered a release. How long has it been since a 121 carrier was released to self help? (1998) This is a fact of life under the RLA, and it just sucks. But it is still a fact. At this stage of the game, without a self-help option, what would you propose going forward?

I'm not voting out of fear, but what I believe is necessity. It is time to start moving forward. Overplaying our hand on the first contract will not end well. Perhaps you're in a better financial position personally that most of us to weather another year with wage stagnation / deflation. If so, good on you. I've done what I had to do financially to make it work (I have no boat, no 2nd house, an older truck - paid off, low debt, etc). But even I have my limits.

Your points are well thought out 993, and I appreciate your position. But I'll be trying to convince people otherwise. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Still voting YES.

 

[OldCrow]

Please tell me, without using the words NetJets, CitationAir or FlexJet, what exactly is "standard" pay in this economic environment? 6-digit salaries at year 10 for a BJ or Phenom PIC are not realistic - at this time.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll restate my main point: If the TA is voted down we will go another year before we see another TA. The money left on the table now is irrecoverable and can not be made up over time. Self help will not be an option. There is no precedent in fractional operations to indicate that the NMB will be sympathetic to us (their reaction will be just the opposite). We will not be offered a release. How long has it been since a 121 carrier was released to self help? (1998) This is a fact of life under the RLA, and it just sucks. But it is still a fact. At this stage of the game, without a self-help option, what would you propose going forward?

I'm not voting out of fear, but what I believe is necessity. It is time to start moving forward. Overplaying our hand on the first contract will not end well. Perhaps you're in a better financial position personally that most of us to weather another year with wage stagnation / deflation. If so, good on you. I've done what I had to do financially to make it work (I have no boat, no 2nd house, an older truck - paid off, low debt, etc). But even I have my limits.

Your points are well thought out 993, and I appreciate your position. But I'll be trying to convince people otherwise. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Still voting YES.

Granted. "standard" pay may be hard to define, however, the lowest of all multi-engine fractionals is not. A small cabin Cpt DOES NOT even get close to 6 figures with the NEW pay.

Avantair (7&7) 10 year Cpt=$98,000 (Piaggio)
FLOPs (7&7) 10 year Cpt=$75,160 (Beechjet or Phenom)

Not to mention if you are in the last 10% of your fleet and are forced in the 16+2 (flex) schedule.

 

[993_Pilot]

Please tell me, without using the words NetJets, CitationAir or FlexJet, what exactly is "standard" pay in this economic environment? 6-digit salaries at year 10 for a BJ or Phenom PIC are not realistic - at this time.

I call BS on this. If every other major player in the fractional market can afford it, then Flops should be able to as well, or our management should be replaced. Berkshire Hathaway, Bombardier, or Cessna aren't going to subsidize the wealthy to fly around on private jets either, they're in business to make money and they have a responsibility to their share holders.

Explain this to me: Avantair is not backed by Berkshire Hathaway, Bombardier, or Cessna, yet their pay scales are far superior to ours, and their revenues per aircraft are far lower than Flops. I believe they're a publicly held company and have everyone on a 7/7 schedule too. Explain why they can make this work. yet Flops can't. I'll be waiting for an answer.

...We will not be offered a release. How long has it been since a 121 carrier was released to self help? (1998) This is a fact of life under the RLA, and it just sucks. But it is still a fact. At this stage of the game, without a self-help option, what would you propose going forward?

How do you know this is a fact? Because someone told you so? Perhaps the IBT leadership expects to get a "NO" vote, but want's to be able to go back to the table with more leverage. If that's the case, they could never tell you so, or they would be in violation of the RLA. Perhaps they also want to get as many people as possible current on their dues again, because many of the MIGS are starting to falter due to the length of this process. We don't necessarily need to be released, we just need a stronger position from which to negotiate. A "NO" vote will do this.

...Perhaps you're in a better financial position personally that most of us to weather another year with wage stagnation / deflation. If so, good on you. I've done what I had to do financially to make it work (I have no boat, no 2nd house, an older truck - paid off, low debt, etc). But even I have my limits.

Perhaps I am better positioned than most to weather out the storm, but we all knew this was coming. If you or anyone else can't afford to live at your current salary for another year, they you're just foolish... and piss poor planning on your or anyone else's part, doesn't constitute any urgency on my part. I say we hold out for better compensation or get this thing shortened to a 2 year, option for 3 by mutual agreement. Either would be OK with me.

Your points are well thought out 993, and I appreciate your position. But I'll be trying to convince people otherwise. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Still voting YES.

I'll still be voting NO, along with lots of other that I have talked to, unless it is amended before they mail it out !

 

[ProFracPilot]

I call BS on this. If every other major player in the fractional market can afford it, then Flops should be able to as well, or our management should be replaced. Berkshire Hathaway, Bombardier, or Cessna aren't going to subsidize the wealthy to fly around on private jets either, they're in business to make money and they have a responsibility to their share holders.

Explain this to me: Avantair is not backed by Berkshire Hathaway, Bombardier, or Cessna, yet their pay scales are far superior to ours, and their revenues per aircraft are far lower than Flops. I believe they're a publicly held company and have everyone on a 7/7 schedule too. Explain why they can make this work. yet Flops can't. I'll be waiting for an answer.

You're making gross (and not well thought out) assumptions. How do YOU know what these companies can afford? You continue to ignore the fact that the large pay increases afforded to their pilots occurred during fat economic times. How can you, with any certainty, know they can still afford them? How do you know that they're not considering the balance of current losses against the cost of labor unrest should they furlough deeper or reduce compensation? To try and compare the compensation offered in our TA against the other fracs, IN THIS ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT, is pure folly.

Further, CA and Flex certainly ARE subsidized by the manufacturers - either directly or indirectly. To believe otherwise is naive. Even NJ has been subsidized in some way by the manufacturers, so long as they kept the order book filled. I'm sure they've lost many incentives with the order cancellations, but I'm sure many incentives will remain contractually in place for a few more years.

We have a different operating model from the other fractional providers. Always have, always will. You knew this when you were hired at FlOps or (if you were RTA) when you went through indoc after the merger.

Perhaps I am better positioned than most to weather out the storm, but we all knew this was coming. If you or anyone else can't afford to live at your current salary for another year, they you're just foolish... and piss poor planning on your or anyone else's part, doesn't constitute any urgency on my part.

Ok, based on your reasoning we should be prepared for what? 10 years of negotiations? 15? In your condescending opinion, we should prepare ourselves for indefinite an indefinite negotiations. Talk about foolish...

I say we hold out for better compensation or get this thing shortened to a 2 year, option for 3 by mutual agreement. Either would be OK with me.

Ain't gonna happen.

I'll still be voting NO, along with lots of other that I have talked to, unless it is amended before they mail it out !

And I'll still be voting YES. I guess we'll know the outcome on March 31st.

 

[convair580]

I am glad to see that Mat and Ric have managed to screw every furloughed guy on the seniority list. Think about this: The pilots that are on the property right now, that are being paid as Captains but technically could not hold that seat, will receive not only 2 months of retro pay but also Captain pay and increases throughout the contract. However if a furloughed captain is brought back before Jan 2011 he will get only 10% more than he was making before furloughed then will be frozen till FO pay catches up to your current pay.(which will never happen) These are the red circled guys. And if a furloughed capt is brought after Jan 2011 guess what? Frozen at your current pay till fo pay catches up. Could this be because Rick Maluda and some of the other union reps technically could not hold a Capt position?(based on seniority). Nice to see that they have built provisions in this contract to benefit their individual needs with no regard to the many furloughed pilots that have paid their dues, sacrificed their careers, homes and family in support of the union.