FLOPS Maintenance Sucks

[dime line]

Everybody that is just basic pay between the 2 companys not including all the extras

 

[netjetwife]

DL, I'm not surprised that the salary figures for members of management aren't known as well as the pilots' wages are. We all have a good idea why that is don't we... Who thinks that group is underpaid relative to their counterparts?

I'd like to know if the company gets subsidized by the other business groups they deal with in the course of operations? Isn't labor a cost of doing business?

So to those pilots who don't think they should be paid the going rate for their skills--this question: Suppose you're selling your home (just as nice as any other in the neighborhood) and the average selling price for your area is $150 a sq ft; are you going to offer your home for $100 a foot.... Why should you and your family lose out on the rewards of your sweat equity? Yes, I've used an analogy but it is very fitting, I think.

Good point, DL! The benefits and extras matter a lot.

 

[skanza]

Dash Trash
You realize it's not management's choice to raise healthcare costs. The entire healthcare system is a mess. Show me one company whose costs have gone down and/or benefits have gotten better. I too, don't welcome the increased cost of healthercare, but it's betteer than the alternative.
As far as no, or poor crew meals and poor hotels; can't you feed yourself? There are groucery stores all over the place. Do you think you deserve a catered meal like those who fly on these planes? And I don't think anyone should have to stay in a crappy hotel, but the pilots don't deserve to stay in 4+ star places either. You are not traveling for luxury, you are working.
Again, no KoolAide drinking here, just the facts.
Fozzy, fly my shiney jet? brag to the ladies? head in the sand? I can't relate to these things.
You anti-management pro union people sound just like all the lazy Auto workers and Airline mechanics that think management is out to get them and they want more money for less output because "the world ouws them". Look at the big 3 automakers-drained by leaching lazy employees ($60 an hour to build a crappy Chevy Monte Carlo) and can't make a quality product to support the company. Airline mechanics that won't do anything outside their job description for the good of the airplane which they are maintaning.
I'll stop sinking to this level now.

 

[CA1900]

....can't you feed yourself? There are groucery stores all over the place. Do you think you deserve a catered meal like those who fly on these planes?

If they expect the airplanes to move in a timely manner out of BFE, then yes, absolutely. I can't speak for Dash, but I have no intention of eating nothing but fast food for an entire week. Talk about increasing health-care costs!

And I don't think anyone should have to stay in a crappy hotel, but the pilots don't deserve to stay in 4+ star places either.

Wow, you seem to have an awfully low opinion of pilots if you think they "don't deserve" four-star hotels.

You are not traveling for luxury, you are working.

Should be just be sleeping in the plane, then? Should we be sharing rooms, too, like Wal-Mart execs have to? Where does the downward spiral stop?

You anti-management pro union people sound just like ...

You don't have to be anti-management to be pro-union and pro-pilot. The ideal situation is where the company treats it pilots as an investment and an asset, instead of simply an hourly expense to be minimized. Companies that understand that fact are among the most successful, and that's not a coincidence.

Management's job is to maximize profits. We understand that. The pilots' job is to maximize income and benefits. These two, opposite goals come together in a bargaining agreement. If a pilot group cannot or will not work to maximize its lot, it gets as little as management can get away with. My previous employer is a perfect example of that -- the month after the union drive failed, medical insurance contributions went up about $1500 a year. Coincidence?

 

[400pilot]

You realize it's not management's choice to raise healthcare costs. The entire healthcare system is a mess. Show me one company whose costs have gone down and/or benefits have gotten better. I too, don't welcome the increased cost of healthercare, but it's betteer than the alternative.

Netjets....

As far as no, or poor crew meals and poor hotels; can't you feed yourself? There are groucery stores all over the place.

This is one of the stupidest things I think I've ever read on this board. Last time I checked, no one(pilots on the road) goes to a grocery store to pick up breakfast, lunch or dinner for obvious reasons, namely, the time to prepare and cook a meal and of course maybe the absense of a kitchen to do it in. Crew meals are provided so that crews will work through meal times. No crew meals means that we have to stop working 2 or 3 times per day to go find food. Unbelievable.......

Do you think you deserve a catered meal like those who fly on these planes?

Like what, lobster and shrimp cocktails? Of course not. But I'm pretty sure I deserve more than the box of Lucky Charms and smashed pair I received once. No milk either......

And I don't think anyone should have to stay in a crappy hotel, but the pilots don't deserve to stay in 4+ star places either.

Last time I checked, Hiltons, Hilton Garden Inns, Crown Plaza, etc....you know, the kind of places that used to be the norm, are not 4 star. As far as deserving anything, I spend half of my life on the road as one of THE PILOTS. You get to stay at home every night, so why don't you just stick to what you know.

This guy or girl is obviously not a line pilot and prefers to hide behind his computer.

 

[FR8DOG777]

What do the pilots at NJ pay for their insurance? hmmmm let me see. NOTHING. Didn't NJ claim to lose hundreds of millions, then the TA was signed and now they are showing a profit in spite of the increase in pay. Wow that sounds great to me, give me a raise and the company will make enough money to write in black instead of red. Wouldn't that be better for FLOPS?

Skanza whether you like it, or not, the union is here to stay at FLOPS. In reality it is probably the best thing that could happen for FLOPS. We do deserve more pay and better benefits. When was the last time there has been a pay increase at FLOPS. If you work here you know the answer. NEVER. If someone would to be hired today they would be hired at the same pay as someone who was hired over 5 years ago. How is that for a pay-cut? Sir I think you do have a false sense or reality of the working conditions and benefits compared to other fractional pilots. I think you either have your own special deal that you risk losing because the union is here, or you are management. You are the minority in a democratic union. You had your chance to vote no, and Bobby Boy told us everyday how to vote NO. Just give him a chance, he would make everything better. He has been here about a year and I challenge you, Skanza, to give me one improvement he, or anyone has made since Bobby came to FLOPS. If you consider over 159% increase in insurance, threat of 130 pilots laid off, a flex schedule with no rules, or the loss of our earned vacation because we are FORCED to take it an improvement so be it. That surly isn't an improvement for me. So I ask you this question what has FLOPS done for me?

Oh lets not forget the lowest thing the company has done to it's pilot lately. How about when payroll makes an accounting error and the company comes back and demands all money back in full now causing pilots to go without pay. Perfect holiday greeting if you ask me. Management wouldn't even try to work it out with them. Skanza tell me how FLOPS is the best fractional out there. Tell me all the great things they have done for you.

P.S. It is funny how you brought up the auto industry and the union, Bobby used that same example.

 

[dash_trash]

Skanza,

My wife’s insurance did actually go down this year, so guess what, we are switching. As stated by FLOPS, their insurance costs have increased 57% over the past two years, yet they increase our costs exponentially, 150%-300+%.

As for buying my own meals, it was much easier in the 121 world were we actually had access to the terminal and a choice of foods. Lets see, Greensboro, GA, nothing to eat within 20 minutes of the airport, Farmington, NM the same, Durango, CO, Bangor, ME, Bar Harbor, ME, La Bandera, TX, all the same. NEED MORE; I know I left several dozen out. If given the opportunity, I would much rather buy the meal myself, but alas, I rarely have the chance.

As for your position on hotels; I don’t know what cheap a$$ commuter you spent time at, but I deserve better than the local motel that doesn’t even meet the criteria for FLOPS published standards. I DO NOT expect outside doors, condom wrappers on the floor, bug infestations, cum shots on the blankets, blood stains on the sheets, cracks in the walls, etc. This describes the last few “MOTELS” this company has put us in, without exaggeration.

Many have said you’re just happy to be flying a jet, well so be it. I have been in this business for years and have seen a race to the bottom at every level; the commuters, majors and now with attitude like yours at the fractionals. I could care less if you are happy flying a jet, when YOUR standards, or lack thereof, bring everyone else’s down.

It used to be a race to the top with all the companies, but I see you have fallen into the thinking of so many that are just happy to have a job. I want a career, not just a job, so forgive me when I tell you to go get F*@%#&! :laugh:

 

[Fozzy]

Skan,
I really hope you are just a management tool. This profession does not need your type.
Go to the supermarket to pick up food!?!:laugh: You have to be kidding me.
Enjoy Motel 6. Maybe the pro next store will give you a freebe. Oh wait, even the hooker has some self respect, and knows how much she should be paid for her services.

 

[TurboHonda]

Skanza is a company troll

Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6
Civ/Mil: civilian
A/C Flown: Jets
Ratings: More jets
Total Time: .4
Posts: 6

Kinda says it all, doesn't it.

Don't waste your time with this guy.

 

[jonjuan]

Skan,
I really hope you are just a management tool. This profession does not need your type.
Go to the supermarket to pick up food!?!:laugh: You have to be kidding me.
Enjoy Motel 6. Maybe the pro next store will give you a freebe. Oh wait, even the hooker has some self respect, and knows how much she should be paid for her services.

Last time I looked, first year hookers were paid more than 50k a year.

 

[Dep676]

Dash Trash
You realize it's not management's choice to raise healthcare costs. The entire healthcare system is a mess. Show me one company whose costs have gone down and/or benefits have gotten better. I too, don't welcome the increased cost of healthercare, but it's betteer than the alternative.
As far as no, or poor crew meals and poor hotels; can't you feed yourself? There are groucery stores all over the place. Do you think you deserve a catered meal like those who fly on these planes? And I don't think anyone should have to stay in a crappy hotel, but the pilots don't deserve to stay in 4+ star places either. You are not traveling for luxury, you are working.
Again, no KoolAide drinking here, just the facts.
Fozzy, fly my shiney jet? brag to the ladies? head in the sand? I can't relate to these things.
You anti-management pro union people sound just like all the lazy Auto workers and Airline mechanics that think management is out to get them and they want more money for less output because "the world ouws them". Look at the big 3 automakers-drained by leaching lazy employees ($60 an hour to build a crappy Chevy Monte Carlo) and can't make a quality product to support the company. Airline mechanics that won't do anything outside their job description for the good of the airplane which they are maintaning.
I'll stop sinking to this level now.

You are frickin idiot.

I can feed myself, yes. However when they are running you 14 hours with hour turns between flights, you do not have time to hardly take a piss.

Next hotels, nobody claims to be traveling for luxury. I do not know about you but I did not like to pull back the covers and see the curly hairs from the last dozen people that slept in the bed.

Now for insurance, nobody is saying that insurance has not gone up. The price they are making us pay is pretty darn close to 100% of the cost of the insurance. If you are really a pilot then go over to the 1108 board and see that the HR guy is getting pissed for people not taking the company insurance. Why do you think that is? I will tell, it is because they are going to be making a profit off us after Jan. 1st. There is no way that a company the size of Options, who is owned 100% by RTN, would need to pay over $400 a month per employee for insurance. Just ask MS what he is paying for insurance. I would bet he is on the RTN plan for $48 a month.

Lazy my A$$, then how come we are still flying 30+ hours a week? I would not call that lazy.

I would call you a complete idiot though, that has no clue what you are talking about.

So like someone else said you are probably not even a pilot, you are just some management puke that sucked their way to the top.

 

[skanza]

Wow. You guys are rough. I'm not a "managment puke", I'm not in management. I'm not hiding behind my computer any more or less than all of you are. (No names posted here).
I don't think that pilots don't deserve good things (food, hotels, rest time), they do, just not *the best* like we seem to be requesting.
Along with not being a company troll of management tool, I am one of those foreign-car-driving-npr-listening-to-can't-stand-pop-culture-authority-questioning-sick-or-others-trying to force thier opinion-or-sell me something- people that a lot of narcissistic people hate.
Peace folks.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Skanza, I'm tempted to ask if you find your life to be difficult...

If you do fly for FLOPS, do you see any erosion of the operations around you? Downgrades in hotels, mandatory vacations, rising health-insurance costs, etc? The FLOPS pilots I meet on the road mention these and other problems.

 

[netjetwife]

Skanza, frac pilots aren't requesting top of the line/luxury hotels or meals. What they must have to safely and efficiently do their jobs are secure rooms in restful surroundings and meals that are nutritional and tasty. This is clearly a situation of what is best for the pilot is also best for the company. Management may think they're saving money on hotel rooms but if the pilot was unable to get the sleep required (cheap rooms often have thin walls and noisy patrons... ) and is unable to fly, what was gained? Yes, they're working but none of the frac crews should be forced to stay in a location where there are security concerns, particularly as they required to come and go at all hours. The job comes with enough sacrifice and risk. Possibly being mugged in the parking lot of a 2 bit hotel should not be one of the factors.

Likewise, with the crew food. Look at it as fuel for the pilot. The less the pilot is distracted with wondering when and what the next meal will be, the more assured the company can be that all of the attention is focused on the job. Smart managers take good care of the workers that take care of the customers. In the case of pilots, mistakes at work can have dire consequences. Such a high level of responsibility merits professional compensation that includes food and lodging which contributes to the accomplishment of the task. Unfortunately, Options management is adding stress rather than relieving it; therefore, it falls to the pilots to get the company back on track. A contract that ends labor strife is the best way to do that. NJW

 

[RTRHD]

What they must have to safely and efficiently do their jobs are secure rooms in restful surroundings and meals that are nutritional and tasty.

I am behind you NJW!!!! It should also be next to Bazokas.

 

[skanza]

Nope. I don't find life difficult at all. Not what you mean Guitar Guy.
Yes, NJW, the strife should end. But at what cost? I'm not sure I have the answer. All violence aside, I consider the viewpoints that many of you have and I wish it were easy for everyone. But it's not. Let's hope the contract works out for everyone.
I don't know anything about an auto industry reference and what "Bobby" sadi. I've had that opinion for a long time.
"don't waste yor time with this guy"? who here is truthful about thier profile? That takes away from the whole "hinde behind the computer. Right?
And in reference to this thread title, does FLOPS MX really suck? They are better than getting the plane worked on by non-FO maintenance people. Those guys don't care about the equipment like the FO people do. Maybe some feel they are steered when writing something up, but that's illegal. I'd write what's broke, not what I'm "told" to write.

 

[FR8DOG777]

Skanza
I like how you have chosen to pick and choose to answer which questions that were directed at you. What has FLOPS done for you lately? What improvement have they made that directly affects the pilots? I thought it was humorous when you got anal-itis when you posed a question on this forum and you thought no one answered it. Then you received many answers and responses. My question still stands for you. What improvements has FLOPS had for the pilots? I don't believe you even work for the same FLOPS I work for. You must work for a different FLOPS. The industry leading FLOPS we all have been hearing about.

 

[FR8DOG777]

I can say that after the increase of insurance premiums being passed on to the maintenance employees, I can see an improvement to their work. I noticed the could care less how fast scheduling would like the plane released back into service. The plane gets released when it becomes fixed. I have also noticed a reduction of "could not duplicate" sign offs. I believe it is because the FLOPS mechanics are taking their time to diagnose and repair the planes properly without influence from scheduling. Also it may be the crews are writing the planes up more accurately for maintenance. Now if only we could get the planes to a maintenance facility instead of operating them with numerous MEL items and several of those bogus MDL items. MDL is just a fancy word meaning if it isn't on the MEL we will just use our MDL. I bet the MDL will change soon.

 

[netjetwife]

I don't know what "Bazokas" is, but I do know what it is to worry when my husband tells me that the hotel is too noisy for him to rest well. In a sense of community spirit I extend that concern to all pilots. If it takes pilots protesting loudly to get managers to focus on safety--so be it. Every frac pilot and family should thank those who speak up. Here's mine--thanks for helping to make the industry safer for all involved! Industry standards need to apply to lodging as well as wages.

Skanza, if the process of contract negotiations was an easy one the phrase "labor dispute" wouldn't be so common. You do seem interested in finding answers. I strongly recommend that you read a book that can shed a lot of light on the situation--Confessions of a Union Buster. It's the true story of a man that got rich destroying the efforts of workers to organize and acquire a contract. In the process, he lost his self-respect and didn't regain it until he confessed and began applying what he had learned to helping, instead of harming, others. What an eye-opener!

As to cost, management is wasting tons of money fighting the pilots instead of dealing with them fairly. Ford & Harrison are union busters. I'm sure their fees would enrage the pilots. An example of what the author charged in 1983--$1000--$1,500 a day per labor "adviser" on his team, lawyers were extra. I don't know about you, but I have a hard time seeing things from the viewpoint of a manager who throws money away instead of using it to solve the problem by giving the pilots a long-overdue raise. To add insult to injury, the only "raise" the pilots have seen, while F&H are raking in the dough, is an increase in their health insurance. When you read the inside story of how companies fight their workers it all becomes very clear. I think if you read the book you'll begin to understand why your fellow pilots are so disgusted.

 

[Dep676]

Nope. I don't find life difficult at all. Not what you mean Guitar Guy.
Yes, NJW, the strife should end. But at what cost? I'm not sure I have the answer. All violence aside, I consider the viewpoints that many of you have and I wish it were easy for everyone. But it's not. Let's hope the contract works out for everyone.
I don't know anything about an auto industry reference and what "Bobby" sadi. I've had that opinion for a long time.
"don't waste yor time with this guy"? who here is truthful about thier profile? That takes away from the whole "hinde behind the computer. Right?
And in reference to this thread title, does FLOPS MX really suck? They are better than getting the plane worked on by non-FO maintenance people. Those guys don't care about the equipment like the FO people do. Maybe some feel they are steered when writing something up, but that's illegal. I'd write what's broke, not what I'm "told" to write.

I can say for sure that FO mx does suck. How about picking a plane up in PBI and taking it out with 3 MEL's, that is just the beginning. Also that is after the plane had been in MX of at least 18 hours. Then we get to TEB, they do not fix but one of the MEL's and extend another that takes 30 minutes to fix. They had the plane at least 12 hours that night. We had to have them come out to re-fix something that they signed off as fixed. Meanwhile the pax are there waiting to go. We finally make it to MCC for more MX. They finally fix all the MEL's. We show up at 0530am and there is more wrong. I have a guy tell that is what a bad switch. The lead comes out and says what is the problem the light is out. I proceed to tell him that the other guy told it was a bad switch. The lead then tried to argue with me that the light was out and the door was closed. I told him that the last guy told me that the switch was bad. He finally agrees and says we will get you a new switch. So after he messes with the switch he says it is a fuse that was blown. He is changing that and here comes another MX guy and says "so this is the one he blew the fuse on purpose so they could get out of here". We confront him on it and he says he was only joking. Joking my A$$, that is funny when they replaced the fuse the light came back on and all the doors were closed. So that leads to the issue of they did not fix anything. Meanwhile all before that the first guy was telling the lead the light was flickering when he was messing wiht the switch. When in fact the light was never coming on because of the fuse being blown. All it turned out to be was the switch on the lav door needed to be adjusted.

So I disagree 100% that FO MX is good. I have been at other shops and they do not let it go until it is fixed.