FLOPS Aircraft in MIA

[B19 Flyer]

You nailed it when you said B19's blinded by his hatred. Until that changes he lacks the objectivity required for a rational discussion about 1108. So while you're waiting best to keep an eye on the rising FUD water.... and grab your boots!

No, it's not hatred. It's an education factor. All of my posts lead to the same thing. Be careful what you ask for.

Each layoff for me brought a better position and a lot more $$ to my paycheck. But, when I started this aviation thing, I had one thing in mind, flying for a major. When I couldn't fly, the obvious choice was to work for a major airline. Direct union activity and the lack of action by unions when times got tough caused my career changes. All the majors fell into the same bucket at the same time in 2000 and 2001. The entire industry had been wildly profitable, all the unions demanded and "WON" (as you like to put it) industry leading contracts. It wasn't management, it was the business climate. The least unionized carriers were able to stay out of bankruptcy or near bankruptcy the longest. The rest of them were crippled, and needed the concessions that unions refused to give when they were needed most.

Your husband flew F-16s. In the Air Force, he got to live his dream. He's now flying for NetJets. While I'm sure he's happy making the money he is, there is no way on this living earth you can tell me when he taxi's out behind an American 767 or 777 he's not thinking that's what he would prefer to be doing. I'm sorry, there isn't a corporate jet in the world that matches the big iron flown by a major airline, and there isn't a paycheck in the corporate world that will match it either.

With me, I lost thousands of dollars with the forced career move, just like you did. But the bottom line with me was being pushed out of the specific legacy carrier I wanted to work at because unions failed to proactively act and prevent the bankruptcy after management did everything they could after the downturn in the economy. Yes, today my $$ is more than I would have ever made at that carrier, I'm doing the specific job I wanted to do, but it's not where I wanted to be. In both your case and mine, the outcome may be satisfactory, but the end result isn't what either of us originally wanted and had to give up after we got there.

I no longer need to worry about the specific issues, (labor strife) that caused my career changes, but you still need to worry about it where you are. Where there is no union, there can't be union turmoil.

And those boots? The only reason you need those, is because when there is a union, there is always the possibility of a strike or career change. I don't need to wear boots anymore.

You'll need those for walking...

 

[dime line]

American 767 or 777 he's not thinking that's what he would prefer to be doing. I'm sorry, there isn't a corporate jet in the world that matches the big iron flown by a major airline, and there isn't a paycheck in the corporate world that will match it either

I'm all choked up, shinney (big) plane syndrone.

Uhhh no!

 

[fischman]

Your husband flew F-16s. In the Air Force, he got to live his dream. He's now flying for NetJets. While I'm sure he's happy making the money he is, there is no way on this living earth you can tell me when he taxi's out behind an American 767 or 777 he's not thinking that's what he would prefer to be doing. I'm sorry, there isn't a corporate jet in the world that matches the big iron flown by a major airline, and there isn't a paycheck in the corporate world that will match it either.

WRONG AGAIN B19!!!!! :laugh:

We call that "big, shiny, jet syndrome." People who think like that generally have low self esteem issues, or a small hoo-hoo. They overcompensate by flying big airplanes, and driving Hummers.

I currently fly a Cessna Citation Ultra, and can HONESTLY tell you I have NO desire to fly the big irons. NONE AT ALL. (And I drive an 11 year old Pontiac Sunfire).

BTW, I know NJW's husband. He feels the same way I do.

 

[WabiSabi]

Where there is no union, there can't be union turmoil.

It's not "union turmoil" you idiot. It's turmoil associated with labor relations. Guess what? There are two sides to that coin. There is a reason for the word "relations". That means unions as well as management. In many companies, (like FLOPS) all of the "turmoil" is due to management's greed and incompetence.

Oh, BTW; Sorry you couldn't hack it as a pilot.

 

[c5driver]

He's now flying for NetJets. While I'm sure he's happy making the money he is, there is no way on this living earth you can tell me when he taxi's out behind an American 767 or 777 he's not thinking that's what he would prefer to be doing. I'm sorry, there isn't a corporate jet in the world that matches the big iron flown by a major airline, and there isn't a paycheck in the corporate world that will match it either.

Take it from someone who has been there. The big jet thing gets old after a year. Not bashing ya, just trying to give you some insight.

btw, had to taxi behind a 76 the other day. Never even crossed my mind.:laugh:

 

[B19 Flyer]

Take it from someone who has been there. The big jet thing gets old after a year. Not bashing ya, just trying to give you some insight.

btw, had to taxi behind a 76 the other day. Never even crossed my mind.:laugh:

He got laid off at American. If you've never worked for a legacy carrier then you've never missed it even if you have flown big iron.

Me, I was laid off by a legacy carrier also once I got there, just like he was. I work with big iron now, make more money and have better benefits, but it isn't the carrier I had wanted to work for. It's not the same thing.

The point is, if you are derailed by something like a union action that you had no part of and are forced to accept something that wasn't part of the original plan, it's not the same thing.

 

[B19 Flyer]

It's not "union turmoil" you idiot. It's turmoil associated with labor relations. Guess what? There are two sides to that coin. There is a reason for the word "relations". That means unions as well as management. In many companies, (like FLOPS) all of the "turmoil" is due to management's greed and incompetence.

Oh, BTW; Sorry you couldn't hack it as a pilot.

No union, no turmoil. Simple. Be careful what you ask for.

Oh, BTW, as far as "hacking it as a pilot", keep your hopes up that you are always able to maintain a 1st class medical.

If you can't, your views about unions and the lack of understanding about the business side of aviation are not looking good for you to have continued employment in the industry.

 

[B19 Flyer]

WRONG AGAIN B19!!!!! :laugh:

We call that "big, shiny, jet syndrome." People who think like that generally have low self esteem issues, or a small hoo-hoo. They overcompensate by flying big airplanes, and driving Hummers.

I currently fly a Cessna Citation Ultra, and can HONESTLY tell you I have NO desire to fly the big irons. NONE AT ALL. (And I drive an 11 year old Pontiac Sunfire).

BTW, I know NJW's husband. He feels the same way I do.

Ok, you were laid off from American too, right? You had it in your hand, and lost it too, right? Not a self esteem issue, its more along the lines of self respect.

It's got nothing to do with the size of the airplane. I've worked with way too many fighter pilots to simply believe that losing his job at American with the potential career earnings is completely acceptable compaired to what he is doing now . Fighter jocks NEVER settle for less than what they wanted.

Maybe he's different. He did choose American first over NJ.

Many of the guys I know that came out of legacy carriers are very comfortable with what they are doing now, but it's no secret amongst any of them that they don't like the fact they weren't able to complete what they started even though they fly the same equipment.

On the shiny jet syndrome? My point was the paint, the career and the inability to complete what was started. No matter how big NJ grows, on it's best day it won't match the status, the payroll or the equipment of AA. Ask the average person, they can't tell you that NJ even exists. That isn't meaning to be disrespectful to the folks at NJ either.

American on the other hand? 80 years of history speaks for itself.

 

[B19 Flyer]

They don't "get it".

FR8DOG777 you misinterpreted my post (not that you are the first on the board to ever misinterpret a post). I was not saying all fractional owners are cheap ... just some. My comment was a rebuttable to the never ending proposition put forth on this board which goes something like this "Fractional owners are so rich. They will not miss an increase in fees. Therefore, we should be paid $xxx". If you look at the history of my posts you wil se I supported an increase in fractional pilot salaries. However, the thesis stated above is wrong. Fractional fees to owners can not increase ad infinitum. At some point owners will look to other methods, such as whole ownership of an aircraft. It is a very faulty assumption to assume that just becuase owners ae wealthy you can increase fees and pikot salaries.

Fly safe.

They don't understand that the labor cost must be covered when a CBA is put into effect. The only way the labor cost is covered is to pass it along to the consumer, in this case, the owners.

If the cost isn't passed along, the carrier makes less money and management is blamed. If the cost is passed along, and owners leave the program, then management is to blame.

In a scheduled carrier, market forces drive the ticket price, just like purchasing shares of an airplane in a fractional. If costs go up and the market doesn't support increased revenue, then something has to give and it's usually the bottom line.

They seem to think that rich owners will pay anything to fly. They don't understand that there are other alternatives, and that the owners didn't get rich by being stupid. They won't sacrifice safety, they will simply find a different way to do business.

In the end, increased labor costs can cripple a fractional just like a scheduled carrier. When things change, a unionized carrier will not be able to react as fast as a non-union carrier to market changes.

Owners flying for a non-union fractional don't have to worry about strikes or work actions that could disrupt their schedule.

They don't "get it'.

 

[dime line]

The point is, if you are derailed by something like a union action that you had no part of and are forced to accept something that wasn't part of the original plan, it's not the same thing.

Oh crap, Please , name me something that was part of the "Original" plan at this crap box that you so cherish. Didn't we have to accept Sheringgas new Idea of an original plan.


How do you like the 3 words I changed, kinda works hu?

"like a MANAGEMENT action that you had no part of and are forced to accept something that wasn't part of the original plan, IT IS the same thing. "

 

[fischman]

You guessed it!!! B19 is WRONG again!!!

You need to do some research before you make outrageous claims.

Your husband flew F-16s. In the Air Force, he got to live his dream. He's now flying for NetJets. While I'm sure he's happy making the money he is, there is no way on this living earth you can tell me when he taxi's out behind an American 767 or 777 he's not thinking that's what he would prefer to be doing. I'm sorry, there isn't a corporate jet in the world that matches the big iron flown by a major airline, and there isn't a paycheck in the corporate world that will match it either.

Ok, you were laid off from American too, right? You had it in your hand, and lost it too, right? Not a self esteem issue, its more along the lines of self respect.

It's got nothing to do with the size of the airplane. I've worked with way too many fighter pilots to simply believe that losing his job at American with the potential career earnings is completely acceptable compared to what he is doing now . Fighter jocks NEVER settle for less than what they wanted.

Maybe he's different. He did choose American first over NJ.

Many of the guys I know that came out of legacy carriers are very comfortable with what they are doing now, but it's no secret amongst any of them that they don't like the fact they weren't able to complete what they started even though they fly the same equipment.

On the shiny jet syndrome? My point was the paint, the career and the inability to complete what was started. No matter how big NJ grows, on it's best day it won't match the status, the payroll or the equipment of AA. Ask the average person, they can't tell you that NJ even exists. That isn't meaning to be disrespectful to the folks at NJ either.

American on the other hand? 80 years of history speaks for itself.

First off, these post are contradictory.

Anyway,
On it's best day NetJets won't match the "status"... of AA??? What does that mean?

NJA won't match the equipment of AA? Why would we? They are completely different business models!:nuts:

The average person doesn't know about NJA because we don't market to the average person. NJA is an "elite" club for the richest 2% of the world! AA and the rest of the U.S. airlines are cattle cars for the common masses! Plus they are BLEEDING money. Why would we WANT to be like them???

You want to compare pay? OK. Lets compare AA to NJA. These rates are from http://airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,64/Itemid,85.html and the 2007 NJA CBA

Year 1 737 AND 777 FO for AA:

$35/hr with a 73 hr RSV guarantee = $30,660 (higher paid schedule)

Year 1 FO for NJA on 7&7= $56,875 (The lowest paid schedule)

Year 7 737 CA for AA:

$157/hr with a 64 hr line guarantee = $120,567
$157/hr with a 73 hr RSV guarantee = $137,532

Year 7 PIC at NJA on:
7&7 schedule is $107,560
18 day Schedule is = $130,847

They are about the same depending on which schedule you are on. Here's another thing to consider. How much do the AA pilot's pay for medical/ dental/ vision? $6000/ yr for a family of 4? What is their 401k match? Crashpad? How many nights a month do they ACTUALLY sleep in their own bed instead of a crashpad or a hotel?

Looks pretty comparable to me.

 

[Whoosh!]

B19... serious question here.

What is it that you want? What are you trying to do? You have no friends on this board. Everyone hates you. Your information is bogus. You're getting nowhere with your posts.

Do you realize that when you're on your deathbed, and unions are still around, and you haven't changed anyones mind about it, all you'll have to look back upon is the rediculously large amount of time you spent hiding behind a screen name of "B19" posting worthless crap on flightinfo.com?

What a pathetic way to waste your life. There are much better causes you can put you're efforts towards and you might actually have some success and make a difference.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Oh crap, Please , name me something that was part of the "Original" plan at this crap box that you so cherish. Didn't we have to accept Sheringgas new Idea of an original plan.


How do you like the 3 words I changed, kinda works hu?

"like a MANAGEMENT action that you had no part of and are forced to accept something that wasn't part of the original plan, IT IS the same thing. "

In all companies there is management.

Unions do not exist in all companies.

Thus, if a union is removed from the company, then there can not be union turmoil.

If management is removed from the company, there is no company,

This applies to all companies, not just aviation.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You need to do some research before you make outrageous claims.






First off, these post are contradictory.

Anyway,
On it's best day NetJets won't match the "status"... of AA??? What does that mean?

NJA won't match the equipment of AA? Why would we? They are completely different business models!:nuts:

The average person doesn't know about NJA because we don't market to the average person. NJA is an "elite" club for the richest 2% of the world! AA and the rest of the U.S. airlines are cattle cars for the common masses! Plus they are BLEEDING money. Why would we WANT to be like them???

You want to compare pay? OK. Lets compare AA to NJA. These rates are from http://airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,64/Itemid,85.html and the 2007 NJA CBA

Year 1 737 AND 777 FO for AA:

$35/hr with a 73 hr RSV guarantee = $30,660 (higher paid schedule)

Year 1 FO for NJA on 7&7= $56,875 (The lowest paid schedule)

Year 7 737 CA for AA:

$157/hr with a 64 hr line guarantee = $120,567
$157/hr with a 73 hr RSV guarantee = $137,532

Year 7 PIC at NJA on:
7&7 schedule is $107,560
18 day Schedule is = $130,847

They are about the same depending on which schedule you are on. Here's another thing to consider. How much do the AA pilot's pay for medical/ dental/ vision? $6000/ yr for a family of 4? What is their 401k match? Crashpad? How many nights a month do they ACTUALLY sleep in their own bed instead of a crashpad or a hotel?

Looks pretty comparable to me.

Missing the point entirely.

NJ wasn't his first choice, it was what he was forced to do because the union didn't act on a timely basis.

I make more $$ now than I ever would have at the legacy carrier I was with. But like him, it wasn't my choice either. I am safer now and actually very happy where I am because there is no union turmoil (no union, no turmoil), but I had achieved what I wanted and would have to give up way too much to go back to a legacy carrier at this point.

Maybe your only aspirations as a pilot was to do what you are doing now, I don't know. Mine wasn't.

My career was changed twice due to union interventions, as was his.

NJ wasn't his first choice.

That is the point. No union, no turmoil.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19... serious question here.

What is it that you want? What are you trying to do? You have no friends on this board. Everyone hates you. Your information is bogus. You're getting nowhere with your posts.

Do you realize that when you're on your deathbed, and unions are still around, and you haven't changed anyones mind about it, all you'll have to look back upon is the rediculously large amount of time you spent hiding behind a screen name of "B19" posting worthless crap on flightinfo.com?

What a pathetic way to waste your life. There are much better causes you can put you're efforts towards and you might actually have some success and make a difference.

You are obviously smarter than me. You figure it out.