Flight training device logging?

[dlwdracos]

I am taking an IFR sim class at one of our local junior colleges. They use an AST-300 sim.

My question is, under what columns would this be logged. The obvious two would be Flight sim and dual.

Would it also be logged under simulated instrument or total time? Is it important to have the number of instrument approaches also?

My instructor only puts it down under FS and Dual.

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging sim time

Rose State, Dracos?

I would log the time as Flight Simulator only and have your instructor sign it off with a description. I think it is important to log the number of approaches, so your instructor should count the number of approaches by type and location. E.g., 1-ILS 17L PWA, 1-VOR-A, PWA, 1-LOC 17 HSD, etc. You would not log the time as simulated instrument or total time because it did not take place in an aircraft.

Good luck with your instrument training.

 

[dlwdracos]

Great, sounds like we are on the right track.

 

[Goffer]

It isn't dual either. Just log date, type of sim, where the sim is located, type of approaches/hold/tracking, number of approaches, sim time. Instructor signs it, and thats all

 

[Avi8tor2000]

Yes it is dual. You can log it only as flight sim (FTD) and dual received, not instrument though. Note: you can also use 50 hours of FTD time to count towards your 250 total time requirement for your commercial license if you decide to get it.

 

[Goffer]

Thanks for clearing that up Avi8tor, I was giving my log book a quick glance and saw nothing was ever put in the dual slots. hmmm.....

 

[Speedtree]

I would not log it as dual. It is assumed that the dual column is for actual flight time and when you go to fill out airlines aps. later it may screw you up. Your PIC, SIC and dual should add up to your total time. (It's also a way to check to see if you've been adding your totals correctly) Sim/FTD is assumed to be dual, especially if the instructor is signing it off. I'm not looking at the columns in the logbook right now but I would say that the dual, PIC, SIC, are all under a category for flight and simulators have there own section. I may not be entirely clear on this but hopefully you get my drift.

 

[dlwdracos]

Ok, which is it.....Dual or not?

 

[avbug]

Dracos,

Instruction received is...instruction received. You're entitled to log it in that manner. You are required to show a certain amount of instruction received. However, for totaling purposes, something else to consider is the relationship of each total.

For private flying, you can essentially forget about the meaning of totals or neatness; nobody cares. However, for the pursuit of a professional logbook, instruction received, plus pilot in command, plus second in command, should equal total time. Therefore, for totalling the instruction received column, maintain in your totals only that which is not pilot in command, or second in command.

Any instruction received may be logged as such, but the total at the bottom of the page should be added only to incude that time not counted as PIC or SIC. On each line in which you receive instruction, log it as "dual" and get an endorsement attesting to that instruction. If you can't log it any other way, total it at the bottom of the page. If you can log it another way, keep it out of the totals at the bottom of the page.

 

[bigD]

Whoa - now wait a minute. If dual and PIC (and any others) should add up to total time - I might as well throw out my log book and make another one. Since receiving my Private, I've flown with numerous CFI's for additional ratings, getting checked out in FBO aircraft, etc...and every last one of them logged my time as both Dual and PIC.

Not that those CFI's can't be wrong, but I sure as heck hope not. That'd pretty well screw my logbook.

 

[LUVStruck]

Something doesn't add up....

Avbug,

I just finally got my logbook all cleaned up to the point that it is as neat and accurate as I am capable of. Or so I thought. If PIC+SIC+Dual = TT, then I am completely $crewed.
Say I am a ASEL private pilot working on my instrument or commercial in a single with an instructor. Or say I am a AMEL private pilot working on my instrument or commercial with an instructor. In either case, I am current and qualified in the aircraft in which I am receiving the instruction. Therefore, the time would be logged as both PIC and DUAL received. Thus, the aforementioned equation is incorrect.
Please correct me if I am wrong, because I was just about to lick the seal on my app envelope.

Thanks,
LUVStruck

 

[bigD]

I guess I should add that they logged it as dual and PIC in the cases where I was qualified to act as PIC in the aircraft, such as getting checked out in a 172 - not when doing my multi training.

 

[LUVStruck]

Well Said

Big D,

We must have been writing at the same time. I agree. If we're wrong, I'm gonna' need a jug of whiteout (and whiskey).

LUVStruck

 

[bigD]

Definitely. I usually try and keep a professional looking logbook...the gallons of whiteout aren't going to help!

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging time

I appreciate Avbug's learned opinion. I gave a lot of rated and current pilots instruction toward certificates and ratings, and always gave them PIC if they were rated in the aircraft along with dual on the basis that they were sole manipulator.

Of course, I could not give non-rated students PIC.

I would not go ape with the whiteout. Total up any improperly-logged time and use one line of your logbook to make the deduction and correction. You can explain what you did and why in the Remarks column and sign it off.

 

[Mickey]

PIC + SIC + DUAL does not have to equal TT
It is normal to have PIC and DUAL at the same time if the pilot is rated in the aircraft he or she is flying and is receiving instruction.
SE + ME + GL + etc... = TT

Look at 61.51
This deals with logbooks.
You could have PIC DUAL FTD and Simulated IMC
(g)(4) A flight simulator or FTD may be used by a person to log instrument time....
Now since most people don't do most of their flying in a sim, the convention has been to only log it as Simulator time, however, that does not tell the whole story in your logbook.
Flight crews use simulators to log visual as well as IMC approaches. In initial training the flight crews are receiving dual. On checkrides they are not receiving dual. Do they only log it as sim time? They person on the left should be PIC SIM simulated IMC and some VMC and perhaps even some DUAL. While the pilot might only be logging it as simulator, I guarantee the company is logging it as a lot more.

Good luck. Clear as mud,isn't it?

 

[Goffer]

I've understood Duel to be time logged with and instructor in an aircraft. All of my FTD time was only noted under the simulator column. Also none of my FTD time is counted as simulated instrument. I need to find a concrete answer for this... Guess I've got another assignment for the weekend.

 

[Glideslope!]

PIC+SIC+DUAL should = TT ???

NO WAY.
If a student is rated in an A/C and recieving flight instruction such as a private pilot recieving an instrument rating, commercial rating, CFI or II rating and he is the one flying, which he should be, then he should be logging PIC as sole manipulator and DUAL RECIEVED also. The CFI should also be logging PIC as the person in charge of the flight. The only time you can log "trainer" time is with a CFII giving you DUAL instruction in the trainer. Although the CFII is teaching you it does NOT go in the dual collumn.The trainer also has to be FAA approved. No "trainer or sim time" without the CFII. The post above was correct about using 50 hrs of "dual "given in the "sim" towards the commercial. If you have all your ratings it is not uncommon at all for these three times not to add up. It was also not a problem for me during interviews.

Too bad I can't add in the 750+hrs of "dual" given in the Frasca's to my TT

 

[Avi8tor2000]

Ok, bottom line.

Like I said before FTD is dual given.

No, PIC + SIC + Dual should not = Total because:

When a pilot is receiving instruction towards an instrument, commercial, CFI, or basically anything other than a private, he is logging both PIC and dual instruction received.

 

[Speedtree]

minority report

Call it what you want but in my interpretation, the CFI is the PIC of the aircraft regardless of whether the pilot is rated. You may claim to be the sole manipulator of the controls as a private pilot working on an instrument ticket etc. but the instructor has the option to take the controls at any time in which case you no longer are the sole manipulator.

If my students want to log PIC time and Dual received, I let them. I personally do not. Most regional airlines and others may not care but your times on the airline grids will work out much easier and they do not regard dual received as PIC. In most cases they don't care about the 50-100 hours of SEL time you logged both ways anyways. Its the MEL that counts.

We can wade around in the gray areas and find many different opinions. I've seen FAA authorities state both sides. I log it more conservatively and it makes for a neater logbook in my opinion.

Back to the FTD/Sim topic.

FAR 61.51 (b)(2). lists 1-5 types of pilot experience
solo
pic
sic
dual
sim training

Log more than one per flight if you want. I like to keep my simulator time separate from my flight time in all categories. Most times when you are asked for instrument time they are talking about flight time and if they want sim time they ask for it.

As for the insrument time in the sim. I have run into that problem as well because I have some sim time that was visual. It does say right in the FARs that you may log sim time as instrument time so it's legal.