Flight Options

[Sun Tzu]

Is there any talk about flight options taking a vote to become part of the teamsters?

If Netjets leaves the teamsters is there a chance of a independent union that the other fractionals may become part of.

It seems that would be a very good move for both groups of pilots. I have never been part of a union and would like to see how the next year turns out.

I am sitting on the sidelines waiting for the industry to play out a little more. I have another 1 1/2 before I retire from the Airforce. If the pay comes up a bit I would like to continue my flying career, and fractional flying sounds like fun.

 

[boxhauler]

Flight Options was the only loser among the 4 major players as far as growth and profit. If anybody needed a union, they do. Management is responsible for unions on the property.

One scenario at NetJets is to leave the local 284 and the Airline Division and have our own local within the IBT.

 

[dime line]

Hey Boxhauler, tell me if I'm wrong but I think that Flex had no growth and showed a loss this quarter. That was in AIN. I agree with what you say about management and unions.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not happy here at Options, and I did send in my card!


And Sun, first congrats with your future retirement, your sure did earn it. Now reality, For us nasty civillians, the fractionals are Careers first, and then fun, we are all underpaid, so if you come over to Options get ready to make under 40000 for the next 4 years, and if you want to make more than that then be a flight attendant.

 

[Frac Daddy]

Flight Options was the only loser among the 4 major players as far as growth and profit. If anybody needed a union, they do. Management is responsible for unions on the property.

One scenario at NetJets is to leave the local 284 and the Airline Division and have our own local within the IBT.

The "only loser"? Are you sure? I, too, heard Flex was hurting. Please state your source.

 

[bluepost]

I think the most likely scenairo is that NJA pilots will get their own local and stay with IBT. The problems we have had is at our local level in my opinion. The national has stepped up in the last 6 months as negotiations have come closer to a close. As at any union, 90% of what you get is dependent on your MEC. If your pilot group doesn't put up good individuals for MEC, then you union will suck. If your MEC puts pressure on the local and national you are more likely to get the service you need.


I hope that one day there will be a fractional union for all fractional pilots. The fractional business is here to stay, and the earlier Options, Flex or CS gets onboard, the more power they will have to make it exactly what they want it to be.

The union is what the members make of it. If they want to protect the lazy and accept crap from the company, that is what they will get. If they want a cozy relationship with management, they can have that too. To blame all problems on the national is a cop out in many (not all) instances. It is unlikely that any national will come down and tell a local how to run itself. Locals have the power to create what they want.

I have visions of all fractional pilots being paid what they are worth, leveling the playing field and allowing all fractionals the opportunity to prosper with higher management fees. Soon we will have similar work rules and it would be nice to have similar protections to our way of life and to this industry.

All fractionals need:

*Captains board power to veto any new hire

*Scope protection (to prevent NJI and the X scenario at options)

*A unifed voice to the FAA and the future of 91k

*NBAA pay adjusted for our increased amount of work

*Senority based upgrades, overtime, vacation, instructor positions

*Merger language

*A fractional safety board for ALL fractionals to investigate and protect pilots involved in incidents/accidents

A fractional union can be anything we want it to be. It doesn't have to be contentious, or overly friendly. It could be what a union is supposed to be, quality of life, and pay protection for its members. It would give us a greater voice in the shaping of this developing industry.

 

[Hobbes]

nice post

That vision of a possible future with a fractional union is a masterpiece. I like to think that one day that could happen, but what a leap it will be. FO will likely soon be in a position to be voting for the same IBT at NJ as a lot of guys have been sending cards in.

 

[bluepost]

I just hope Options pilots realize some of the things I mentioned above. If they vote in the IBT, the biggest influence they will have will be their own MEC. Again..they can have whatever type of union they choose.


Also with a unifed local we could also have a larger pilot mutual aid for all pilots in the local. Lets say $10 a month times 3000 pilots, that would be $30k a month to help support our fellow pilots in need...whatever that may be...flooded house, death in the family, loss of medical etc.

How about another $10 a month for a strike fund or all pilots in the local.

A serious question here...what are the ways that Options pilots think things could get worse if they voted in a Union?

 

[Hobbes]

this is what we don't want....

From "News of the Weird.com"


An AFSCME union local filed a grievance against East Haven, Conn., mayor Joe Maturo recently for violating the city's labor contract by personally doing the civic task of reaching down into a storm drain and repositioning the drain cover, which Maturo noticed had become dislodged. According to the union, if a cover comes loose, the city is required to call out exactly four union employees, three of whom would get time and a half and be guaranteed four hours' work. Said union president John Longley, "It's not about the money; it's about our work." (Maturo, a licensed electrician, was a longtime union member himself.) [Newsday-New Haven Register, 8-2-04]

 

[PHX767]

Wait a minute....

Excuse me Bluepost, I have a difference of opinion.

Does any union need a board of anyone to veto new hires? YGBSM! Do other companies do that? And if so, why?

Seniority for overtime? How does that work when we at FO are on an 8/7 schedule? I can't work an extra day (not that I would, just hire more pilots is my answer) because somebody senior to me wants to? What are they going to do, airline that guy to my plane to work one day?

Scope protection? You mean no wet lease of C-X's I assume. That is a bunch of $hit. I agree with that. But scope - of course you wouldn't want a bunch of little jets flying your routes. Does that mean you are against expansion? More smaller airplanes flying our owners, even if they are our pilots?

I like the idea of a frax safety panel. Do we have to have a union to do that?

Any group of employees can form a fraternal organization to pool money to help others. Great idea. Kind of like the PMA at APA.

 

[bluepost]

I respect your opinion.....my post was just off the top of my head, not some big master plan...but I will try and address your questions anyhow.


*A union veto board is to ensure the company is hiring folks that a) you feel you can get along with, b) doesn't have battered self worth, c) is not a scab d) doesn't support Nader

* The overtime comes from the problem we have at NJA where some guys take all the OT, and are looked upon favorably because they may overlook some write ups, may waive some duty issues, etc. Not fair for someone to get 9 extended days and someone else not being able to get one. Our extended days are pre assigned days in advance most times. If one guy is always getting the pre assigned days, and someone else is not, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL...there is a problem

*Scope is for the individual companies, not "routes" you have been in the airlines too long. Just to prevent the company from starting a shadow company like...hmmm....lets see.......OH, I know...NJI

Again my original post was off the top of my head, relating to issues we have at NJA, I don't know the day to day ops at other fracs, so some might not apply, and you may have other issues, so take my "issues" with a grain of salt. They are just some examples.

Here is a question for all of you...take a guess, because I sure don't know..but:

How much business do you think all the fractionals would loose if everyones management fees went up 15%? Out of the 5000-7000 customers we all have, how many would say....whow, that is too much money now? 50? 500? 1000?

 

[PHX767]

Thanks Bluepost

For the insight into your idea.

We too, have overtime grubbers - I can bet they will be out in full force Labor Day weekend... This one person I was paired with was on his 11th day in a row. He said he does at least a day or two of OT every tour, "because they always ask me." They don't bother asking me any more after I told them the last time, Sure if you pay off my car. So it ought to be available to those that want it, I see what you are getting at - just the mechanics of the seniority issue are cumbersome.

I don't have a clue how price sensitive owners are to increases... I guess it would be a mixed reaction. There would have to be a tradeoff - but what?

 

[bbjcapt]

Stop Working Overtime!!

I have a serious problem with someone on their 11th day. As all of us that work for FLOPs know, our 8 day tour leaves us so tired we can border on not being safe by the end of the week. Anyone who goes beyond 8 days has no possibility of being safe. Also, they get so grumpy, they are impossibel to be around. I have yet to see someone who works overtime that has a good attitude. What a horrible thing to have to fly with that idiot. I would refuse to fly with someone who has worked so many days. It shows a severe lack of judgement and puts my life and our owners lives at risk.

Secondly, they are not allowing SIC's to upgrade. The company figures it can get those stupid PIC's that consistantly work overtime to cover the lack of pilots. This causes the SIC's not to be upgraded as quickly. The company loves it! Just watch out that you don't have a mutiny by your frustrated SIC

Third, they are making it harder for everyone to get vacation requests. Again, they let the company get by with not hiring enough people by picking up the slack for our understaffing. We need more pilots and they are standing in the way. What company stooges they are!

 

[PHX767]

You're singing to the choir here

Bbj, (and I understand completely)

I am with you 100%. The answer to the manning and overtime issue is obvious. Hire more pilots! Man, after 7 days on you hope there is a collective total of one brain between the two of you. Not likely. After 8 days on... Wow. Hide the sharp objects.

Oh well, I am off to my own Bbj on Sunday. Hopefully it will be a nice place like my last tour where I flew a total of 1 hour in 4 days on duty (had some leave). Got a lot of reading done...

 

[leardawg]

To say that anyone who goes more than 8 days is a "stupid stooge" is a little harsh. (What does that make pilots at some other aviation companies who work a 2-week schedule?) A lot depends on what those first 8 days are like, and I certainly agree that if you've been run ragged, you probably should go home on day 8. I agree the company needs more pilots. I've worked one day of overtime this year, after a relatively easy tour (which I admit is rare). I have volunteered on 2 other occasions, again after sitting around for a couple of days, but not getting it (and no, I am not in the Citation fleet). People have different reasons for doing so. To label all of us basically idiots is simplistic.

 

[flyr4hire]

maybe stupid stooge is harsh

How about buddy f*c*er then? That's probably more appropriate for working overtime, no matter what the reason.

 

[Heavy Set]

Chill out pal. Remember to take your meds....

 

[flyr4hire]

Who asked ya Heavy

Don't have to worry about me and my meds... we're juuuuust fine. My original reply, before I edited it, included a healthy dose of personal attacks and name calling but that would just cloud an issue that I feel very strongly about. I don't know why you feel it necessary to sign onto the Frac board and add a snide comment or snipet, but I guess that's your right...

 

[leardawg]

Unfortunately, that's the kind of attitude i've come to expect on this website. Instead of a frank discussion between professionals, resort to name calling of those with whom you disagree. What a joy to be stuck with someone like you for eight days who is pissed off at the world and sees someone trying to f**k him up the a** at every turn.Over many years in this business, I have been constantly amazed at the number of people who bitch and moan about their lot in life, right up to and including the left seat of a 747 and beyond. It's as if it was some court-ordered life sentence imposed in lieu of jail time.It gets very tiresome, to the point where you just want to scream SHUT UP AND GO DO SOMETHING ELSE FOR A LIVING! Everyone has complaints, dude, but us grownups learn how to channel them in a way that might actually make a difference. All the whining, finger-pointing and name-calling in the world WILL NOT CHANGE A THING.I repeat: WILL NOT CHANGE A THING. Send in your union card if you see it as the solution to your woes; find like-minded colleagues and speak in one voice; realize that many will not agree with everything you say. In the meantime, accept the fact that good people who disagree with you are not always the enemy.It's called maturity.Grow up!

 

[dime line]

Hey Leardawg, I agree with most of what your saying......But....Yup there is the But. I know quite a few guys that are on year 4 Capt with the company and on year 2-3 on pay. So You have to understand their situation and ideas of the company. And I'm sure the Future Falcon and X guys taking the new Options pay scale are loving that one. As you know the list goes on and on.

 

[leardawg]

flight options

Dime Line:

I agree wholeheatedly with your point. I think there are numerous issues that need to be dealt with, not the least of which is fair compensation for what we do.I just don't think the overtime issue is going to make a significant difference one way or the other. The Schedulers were actually told to cut back on giving out overtime a couple of months ago, so I don't see the company looking at this as a make-or-break issue. As far as I'm concerned, if someone wants to work overtime, that's their business. If anything, they're lightening the load for those who are on their regular tour. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my opinion. I have a problem with people denigrating co-workers over such an issue.It's one thing to to state a position and explain why you feel that way. What I can't stand is those who proceed to attack the character and motivations of people (many of whom they don't even know) who have a different opinion. I've often found that the loudest and nastiest complainers are the first ones to stop practicing what they preach when an opportunity comes their way, taking their "fourty pieces of silver" and running. When it comes down to it, it's really all about them as far as they are concerned.