Flight Options Accident?

[Safetycheck]

What next?

Are there any Flight Options pilots out there who can elaborate on what happened to the Pilots on the accident flight?

Were they disciplined? Fired? Re-assigned?

How has the company changed after the accident? Has the training program been upgraded or changed?

My observation is that Flight Options pilots have disappeared from this board...perhaps a company requirement (or suggestion)after the accident.

-Safetycheck.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

A company requirement to get off this board? Come on......

 

[NJA Capt]

A company requirement to get off this board? Come on......

Actually, Yes.

This weeks FLOPS message from Ken Ricci said they were sending out "confidentiality" agreements to all employees to stop talking about Flight Options on public message boards. He also stated that he still doesn't want a union at FLOPS and that HE is the best union steward they have.

I guess we now know why the Options message board was shut down.


Any of you Flight Options chaps able to speak on the issue?

 

[FracPilot]

Any of you Flight Options chaps able to speak on the issue?

We must be the center of attention if EJA pilots are listening to Kenn's weekly announcements. Yes, there is a confidentiality policy here, as there is at every other company I know of. That policy basically states that employees are not to share private company information with individuals outside the company. That's all. Simple, isn't it?

The problem is that there are a few ex RTA pilots that are very angry, bitter individuals that are badmouthing the company over every little thing they don't like - and doing it in a very public manner. There are a couple that claim to be former RTA pilots, now FO, LLC pilots, that really should be fired due to their attitude alone. No company would put up with their BS. I am not referring to the Union pushers, but just the people that have a "screw the company" attitude.

Now don't concern yourself with the happenings at FO, LLC - go back to your own little world where everything is perfect. What happens here is none of your concern, so why are you so worried about it? Just looking for any reason to badmouth the competition?

 

[WileE]

Jetz is right.

This incident reflets 100% on the Fractional Industry. Just like every time an airliner runs off the runway or crashes it reflects on the airline industry. Just like every time a GA pilot runs out of fuel and crashes it reflects on the GA industry.

Nothing pointed out here is unique to how business is done at the fractionals or anywhere else. What seems to have contributed to this accident is common traits of all pilots: Get-there-itis, the tendency to be distracted by gadgetry in the cockpit, overconfidence in one's own ability, complencency, etc.. Trying to point to this accident as an indication of the overall safety of FO, or of 3000 hour captains is just plain stupid. Everyone needs to look at themselves as a pilot and constantly remind themselves how they could end up in the same situation. Everyone has done something that they look back on as stupid and recognize that they were lucky to get away without dinging the aircraft, the good pilots recognize those incidents and learn from them whether they are captains on a 152 or a 747.

 

[NJA Capt]

We must be the center of attention if EJA pilots are listening to Kenn's weekly announcements.

Just looking for any reason to badmouth the competition?

Thank you for a very professional and well thought out response. It was not my intent to bad mouth anyone, nor am I worried about anything. I merely pointed to a possible reason there have not been many responses from FL OPS pilots lately.

We are not your enemy, you are not our enemy, and this is not a war. I don't seek to find confidential FL OPS information, and do not wish to have it. I do however, like to point out facts when misinformation is spread about us. Much the same as you do for FL OPS.

Good luck,
PS...No EJA pilots here, only NETJETS

 

[Safetycheck]

Article in AIN, June 2002

AIN News Briefs, June 2002

FRAX OPS HAVE PROPENSITY FOR RUNWAY OVERRUNS

Of the few accidents that have ocurred to a fractional aircraft (none of them fatal), runway overruns are the most common. There were three such events since February (none resulting in serious injuries), including one in which a NetJets Citation 560 was destroyed in the overrun crash and subsequent fire May 2 at Real County Airport in Leakey, Texas. This was the first fractional jet totally destroyed in an accident. The other two recent overrun accidents involved Flight Options aircraft: a Mitsubishi Diamond on February 10 at the company's home field (Cleveland Cuyahoga) in IMC and light snow (with only crew aboard); and a Beechjet 400A in VMC conditions on May 1 at Baltimore Washington International Airport (four passengers and two crew). Both Flight Options airplanes were substantially damaged.

________________________________________________

This is not good press...

Are they correct in making this leap to say that all frax operations are susceptible to overruns?

Clearly, they have done a good job in only stating the facts. It is the inference that frax have a "propensity" for overruns that is bothersome.

 

[Eagle]

Re: Chill!!!

I can't stand people who jab at companies post accident, incident, whatever - especially if they work for the competition. You are crapping on people who otherwise may have been your best friends if you worked with them.

A few things come to mind here.

1. The Jet community (biz/frac/135) is VERY small. Keeping in mind that everyone of us has f'd up more than once, makes the back biting even more juvenile than it need to be.

2. there is little doubt that people who are willing to blast away at other pilots who have had accidents/incidents would be the first one to say YES PLEASE if offered a job by the company. Easy to sit back and say Hell no ..when you have a job, your company cans you, furloughs you or the like, you bet you would be first in line.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Safetycheck,

Sorry for the delayed response, but I was on my tour. FYI, yes, I am with Flight Options. In Kenn's weekly message, he might have meant talking on public bulletin boards such as the Flight Options Bit*ch board, not this one. As has been mentioned in previous threads, that board is the very small minority (probably of former RTA pilots) who aren't happy with the way things are going over at FO and they complain about it on the website. Kenn is handling it his own way, and we are dealing with it in our's. As was previously mentioned, go back to your own little hole in the world where everything is perfect. Don't come into our not-so-perfect world and start bashing on Options. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. We have a great pilot group. I'm flying with Options pilots, as well as former RTA pilots, and everyone is fantastic. On the road, we all get along well and and continue to make this a great company. Mind your own business and we'll mind our's.

Regards,
Clap

 

[Safetycheck]

Everyone is fantastic

Thats wonderful to hear, Clap. Glad you are happy in your King Air position with Flight Options.

So, everyone is happy there? Even the Jet captains who were downgraded and those who were bumped from the jets into the King Air?

I have spoken to several of your pilots on the road and it seems that since Ricci came out with his directive, pilots have been more muted with their responses.

Let me ask you...what do you like flying better...the EMB or the King Air? How long will it take for you to upgrade? How are the customers taking the merger?

-I dont come from a perfect world. That is why I am hanging out over here in this one. I enjoy learning about this fractional revolution, as I'm sure all the prospective pilots that come in here to decide what to do with their careers are doing as well.

This IS my business.

I have a hard time understanding why you are so COMBATIVE, Clap. Not a good personality trait for a pilot.

 

[flydog]

Safetycheck

You really dont have the entire story. There is a very minor group of pilots that are unhappy with the changes their life went through when RTA was bought out. This is not representative of the pilot group at large

Yes there were pilots that were displaced from left seat to right seat and even down an airplane type. This was because there were too many pilots for too few airplanes. The RTA pilots were working 24 more days a year and this required more pilots per A/C.

The pilots that were bumped to SIC received PIC pay which in most cases was equivalent to what they were making at RTA as Captains.

It seems like the biggest problem with these folks is they have egos larger than the airplane they were flying. There are a ton of pilots on furlough right now and this small group of RTA pilots are bitching because they have to fly a BeechJet instead of a Hawker. I guess the best analogy I could make is getting bumped from a 777 into a 757. Personally I would give my left nut to fly either one.

I have friends who used to fly a 767 that are now sitting at home wondering how the rent is going to be paid. Union or not sometimes business economics and harsh reality force big changes for people and in this case a coupe of swelled heads had to go to the right seat and smaller airplanes. The alternative could have been unemployment.

I can honestly say I have never met a Flight Options pilot who was unhappy while I have met a lot of RTA pilots who were intensely at odds with their management. It seems like this apathy carried over to their new job at Flight Options.

As far as upgrades. The guys hired in March into the King Air right seat are going into light jets now. The upgrade times to Captain are running slightly over one year.

Personally I have flown as Captain in both jets and King Airs and I dont care which one I fly on a given day but my ego may not be as large as others. I dont consider being assigned a King Air trip some kind of insult just because it has propellers. Quite frankly I would prefer a DC-3 if they had one. I enjoy flying and a day spent with the gear up is better than a day spent on the ground.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Flydog,

You are right on. Great post.


Safetycheck,

I'm not a combative person. When someone starts complaining about my employer, I just want to set the record straight.

So is everyone happy there?

No, not everyone is happy at Flight Options. Most people are, but not everyone. I know a former RTA pilot who was a Hawker captain and his seniority holds King Air right now. He wasn't happy with the downgrade in airplane, but he is happy with the pay raise. There aren't a lot of egomaniacs here that have to fly the biggest equipment we have. They want the money, and that RTA pilot got a raise when he started flying the King Air. That made him happy. As was previously mentioned, most pilots who were original Options pilots are happy. Mergers are meant to be good for the company(ies) in the long run. You will always find folks who are unhappy with mergers, so we do have some angry employees right now. I think it's a safe bet most of them (of the few angry folks) are former RTA pilots. Once all the wrinkles get ironed out, I'm sure they will be happy too. It's not just the change in aircraft or seat, it's deeper than that. They lost some benefits and other perks they would have had with RTA. Unfortunately, they won't get those back. It's definitely a downside to the merger.

Let me ask you...what do you like flying better...the EMB or the King Air? How long will it take for you to upgrade? How are the customers taking the merger?

I like flying airplanes, period. If I got paid six figures to fly a J-3, that would be my dream job. The ERJ was nice, but sitting reserve wasn't. I had 11 days off per month, and half the time I would have to commute out a day early, so you can bring that down to 6 days off. Now I know I have 14 days off (sometimes more) the company won't touch me. That adds up to more time spent at home with my family. I don't have to commute anymore because I have an airline ticket waiting for me. Those two factors make my life a whole lot easier. Plus, I know my schedule for the rest of the year so I can plan holidays and vacations with my family. The paychecks aren't a whole lot different either. With per diem included, the difference per month is less than $400 than what I was making as a captain on the RJ. An airplane is an airplane. I like flying them all. I fly a King Air 200 with 1100 hours on it. It's got EFIS on the capt. side and it'll do everything that RJ would. It's not a 450 kt. airplane, but how many RJs can you fly into a 3,200 foot strip on an island off North Carolina? We do some great flying in the King Air, and I don't miss the RJ because of it.

Upgrades are not a long time. I'll be leaving the King Air for a light jet within a month. From there, probably between a year and a year and a half (from starting with the company to upgrading) to get a PIC slot. Eighteen months is not a long time. Granted, we get typed right off the bat as an SIC, but getting used to the paperwork, handling pax problems, etc. takes some time to get used to. I'd rather sit back and watch my PIC handle that for a year or a little more, and learn from him.

The customers are dealing with the merger pretty well, from what I've seen. To be honest with you, I've had one complaint in the last three months. One lady had an incident with catering during the week of the merger. She understood the merger was going on, so she kept the complaints to a minimum. Once again, mergers are always tough. You will always get complaints.

One last thing... The management types at RTA kept a lot of things from their pilots. I've talked to the former RTA guys about it, and it's going to take a lot of time before they start to trust management at FO. I know after Indoc, some of the former RTA guys started to trust our management, just because we got a three hour question and answer session with Ricci, and he was straight up with us on everything. It was all fair game (some took it a little too far, but that's another thread) and Ricci did a great job of handing the whole thing. Over time, the RTA guys will grow to trust management and that will improve the morale on the RTA side of the house.

I understand people want to see what's happening with the Frax market right now. It's a new part of aviation that's growing very rapidly right now. The thing that irritates me is people like you coming on here complaining about Flight Options' problems and you aren't even a part of the company. You will find bad with any company, but at Options, the bad is far outweighed by the good. I hope you find what you are looking for.

Best Regards,
Combative Clap

 

[Safetycheck]

Can you guys answer the questions?

Can you guys, instead of ranting on about someone who is "complaining" about your company, answer some of the questions about how your company has adapted after this unfortunate occurence?

To say that I am "complaining" infers that I have some interest in your company... my interest is in the fractional industry as a whole. That you come to the defense of "your company" shows your loyalty as clearly as the method you use shows your ignorance.

How has your training program changed? How about your SOP's?

Thanks.

 

[flydog]

Safetycheck

Your posts read like you are trying to start a war, flamebait, whatever you want to call it

The facts dont support the rumors and innuendos

 

[Safetycheck]

The Facts

The facts are what they are.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020513X00667&key=1

This is what we are trying to discuss in this thread, and how to avoid this type of CRM failure in the future, for the sake of the entire Fractional industry.

 

[trainerjet]

Re: CRM approach brief

Safetycheck,

I appreciate your concern on this point. Most of us have given the takeoff crew brief a thousand times indicating that if the PNF detects anything abnormal prior to a specified speed then he/she is to call "abort, abort, abort" and the takeoff is aborted without question. This means that during the initial ground roll phase both pilots must be in concurrence and each has absolute and unquestioning veto power over continuing the takeoff if they detect something amiss. This is the essence of modern CRM, teamwork.

At my company, it is the Captian's decision to abort, and the Captain carries out the RTO. If the FO is the PNF, he/she brings the condition to the Captain's attention, and the Captain decides if an RTO is warranted, and if so, rejects the takeoff. If the Captain is the PNF, he/she retains control of the power levers until V1. It has long been Boeing's position, that a high-speed reject is a far riskier maneuver than continuing the takeoff for most conditions (except engine failure, fire, or controllability problems), hence the reasoning that the Captain perform the RTO.

 

[trainerjet]

It's basically a different philosophy between light aircraft and heavier aircraft. In a light aircraft, usually there is much excess runway avialable for the abort, and the abort speeds aren't nearly as high. In heavier aircraft, the abort, particualrly at high speeds near V1, can be much more difficult. As I mentioned earlier, Boeing has much material available on the dangers of the high-speed abort.

At my company, we will abort for just about any significant malfuction below 80 kts. But once above 80 kts, up to V1, we will only abort for an engine failure, fire of any kind, or something else like an obstructed runway or a contol problem. The FO, if he/she is the PNF, would state the problem such as "Engine Failure", the Captain, who's hands remain on the power levers (whether he/she is the flying pilot or not), will initiate the reject. It's not a question of the Captain making the decision so much as it is the Captain carrying out the procedure. Like you said, the conditions requiring a rejected takeoff are pretty much understood by all prior to beginning the takeoff roll. The Captain has the added leeway to reject any takeoff that he/she feels would be in the best interest of safety, if he/she believes the aircraft cannot safely become airborne.

 

[FracPilot]

"This takes all the guesswork out of it during a critical situation. I actually do not understand how introducing PIC discretion for following through on these procedures or NOT at his sole discretion would in anyway improve safety and reliability."

I once had a First Officer call an abort at 115KIAS on a 5000' runway because a generator dropped offline. I continued the takeoff. Do you think that I should have aborted less than 10KIAS below V1 when our BFL was 4950' for a generator on a clear day?

 

[flx757]

Absolutely not.

I agree with what 'trainerjet' was saying. In fact my current company (757s) as well as my previous one (MD-80s) does it that exact same way.

 

[flydog]

Your FO is a moron for calling an about for a generator 10 knots below V1 and you were right to continue.

Most SOPs call for aborting below V1 and above 80 knots only for loss of an engine, loss of control, or fire. Above 80 knots it needs to be a serious emergency to try and stop on the runway. This is the way we always brief it and the way Simuflite and Flight Safety teach it.