Flight cancellations surge at American Airlines

[Boxboy]

He is best suited for some corporate flight job where the aviation employees have to spend countless hours on their knees pleasing their bosses. Which is what he most likely did while at the non-union Netjets International division.

G4 may be a hermaphrodite then!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I'm certain the lot of them couldn't manage a whorehouse at a navy shipyard.

Whorehouse/shipyard? Where and are they hiring pilots?

 

[Secret Squirrel]

No, but I just got hired as a piano player, my mom is finally proud of me.

 

[G4dude]

Don't mind G4... He's a Netjets Gulfstream pilot... Was formerly on the NON-UNION Netjets International side... And has been pissed off and anti-union ever since he was forced to join the Netjets North America side and the in house union at Netjets...

He's probably the most despised poster on the fractional side.. His identity has never been revealed, but he is undoubtedly a feable man with very little backbone. We established that fact this time last year when the merger happened amongst the Netjets divisions.

He represents everything the furloughed Netjets pilots despise. An all about me attitude. He undoubtedly would screw over his fellow pilots to either save his own ass or for personal gain....

He is best suited for some corporate flight job where the aviation employees have to spend countless hours on their knees pleasing their bosses. Which is what he most likely did while at the non-union Netjets International division.

I think he doesn't like me.

 

[G4dude]

All I was suggesting was maybe acting to hurt your employer while it is in financial trouble might cause a lot of pilots to lose their jobs. Is this observation some sort of radical idea? I do so enjoy the allusions to my genital size and urinating habits. When union crazies react this way, it kinda makes my point, don't you think?

 

[jdubya]

If your gonna be in this profession you should always be a student not only of flying but of the business. Take a little time to learn what the AA guys have been through in the past and the actions of their management, and you may be able to see (just a little) of their perspective, but indeed it takes a couple of decades to truly get a feel for it.

 

[doylehargraves]

All I was suggesting was maybe acting to hurt your employer while it is in financial trouble might cause a lot of pilots to lose their jobs. Is this observation some sort of radical idea? I do so enjoy the allusions to my genital size and urinating habits. When union crazies react this way, it kinda makes my point, don't you think?

And their employer has been bending them over for the last 18+ years in a row while upper mgmt takes record bonuses. I don't know about you but, it seems the best way to hurt rich people is to take their money. It's the only recourse they have. What do you expect them to do G4? What, in your brilliant mind that we all admire and enjoy greatly on a daily basis, would you do if someone continually lied and stole from you the greater part of your career? How would you impact their decisions other than what is being done genius? Please, I'm begging, give us some of your outstanding business expertise so that we all might learn something from your never ending knowledge of modern business systems and economic systemic management laden problems? We all know you have the right answer for everything, please, don't make us wait any longer to share your mountain of experience at top levels of union leadership and management.

 

[G4dude]

And their employer has been bending them over for the last 18+ years in a row while upper mgmt takes record bonuses. I don't know about you but, it seems the best way to hurt rich people is to take their money. It's the only recourse they have. What do you expect them to do G4? What, in your brilliant mind that we all admire and enjoy greatly on a daily basis, would you do if someone continually lied and stole from you the greater part of your career? How would you impact their decisions other than what is being done genius? Please, I'm begging, give us some of your outstanding business expertise so that we all might learn something from your never ending knowledge of modern business systems and economic systemic management laden problems? We all know you have the right answer for everything, please, don't make us wait any longer to share your mountain of experience at top levels of union leadership and management.

I would leave for a better job. Which I have done before.

 

[G4dude]

If your gonna be in this profession you should always be a student not only of flying but of the business. Take a little time to learn what the AA guys have been through in the past and the actions of their management, and you may be able to see (just a little) of their perspective, but indeed it takes a couple of decades to truly get a feel for it.

I am sorry for what AA did to the pilots in the past. Isn't further endangering AA's survival now counterproductive? With the current economy in malaise, maybe now is not the time. That's all. By the way, after what the AA unions did to TWA, I have a little difficulty sympathizing now, actually.

 

[imacdog]

A little more background on G4:

If you freaking morons ever strike NJA, I will definitely scab. So will almost all my colleagues at the former NJI.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Ah, a "rugged individualist."

 

[Boxboy]

A little more background on G4:

Oh, so a scab hermaphrodite who pees sitting down and $hits standing high and mighty on union crazies and fellow employees.

 

[jdubya]

Ahhh hah! Thanks Dog that says it all

 

[Mamma]

Originally Posted by G4dude
If you freaking morons ever strike NJA, I will definitely scab. So will almost all my colleagues at the former NJI.

You sir, are a dirtbag. I would be careful lumping your colleagues in the same group as yourself.

 

[rjacobs]

By the way, after what the AA unions did to TWA, I have a little difficulty sympathizing now, actually.

Might want to research what actually happened there. While I wont say APA turned a blind eye to what was going on, it was in fact ALPA that ********************ed the TWA pilots, not APA.

 

[say again]

Might want to research what actually happened there. While I wont say APA turned a blind eye to what was going on, it was in fact ALPA that ********************ed the TWA pilots, not APA.

He's a naive, ignorant prick!!

 

[HA25]

I am sorry for what AA did to the pilots in the past. Isn't further endangering AA's survival now counterproductive?

no, because "no job" and keeping your dignity is better than a $hitty job...

If you have ANY idea of the history at AMR, and the dichotomy between how well management members have done vs the pilots over the past decade plus you would not be saying such stupid and naive things.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

OK G4, I'm sitting on the outside looking in but let me see if I can make this a little easier for you to understand in your frac world. I guess you're making over $100K a year as a NJA captain. Let's say instead you're making around $60K a year like you guys did before the contract was signed at the end of 2004 (because AA pilots are making 15% less than their industry standard wages in 2000). Management offers a paltry raise so that at the end of your 6 year conract, plus RLA induced 4 more years without one, you will be making $69K a year in 2022, except subtract night/int'l override and soft time from new draconian work rules, so in 2022 you will make the same you did in 2004. Except you can kiss your 7.5% company 401K match goodbye, and now you have to work 9 on 5 off for the same pay you got for 7 and 7. Oh, and all the Beechjets and old citations will be outsourced to Netjets Lite resulting in hundreds of NJA furloughs, but furloughed pilots are welcome to apply for $19K/year to start! Maybe you will still make $60K. Maybe you will be displaced out of your CA seat and make $40K instead. Also, your company is losing money because while other companies like Flex and and Citationshares used their employee concessions to fund new Citation Xs and Gulfstreams (ever heard of them?) your beloved NJA is still flying around Sabreliners and Jetstars burning a crapload more fuel than the competition. This because a large amount of NJA concessions were used to fund management raises and obscene bonuses. So because of excessive management compensation and fuel burn NJA is losing money, files bankruptcy and blames the pilots because they work one day less per month than their competitors, while still having 4.5 BILLON DOLLARS cash in the bank. Given the choice between accepting all the above or doing everything in your power to LEGALLY change the above scenario, what would you do?

P.S.- While above is playing out, Flexjet who already made more than you just got a raise and is looking at another significant one in 3 months. The new Super Citationshares who merged with Flightoptions has an AIP on a contract with massive improvements above your current contract, and both of these contracts will allow much less outsourcing to their "lite" divisions than your management is trying to ram down your throats. Still want to bend over and take it up the potito? This is the choice every AA pilot must make. I do not envy their situation, but sometimes it truly is better to die fighting then live on your knees in fear.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Here's a great explanation of what's going on. Something you probably won't see on CNBC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTmUzcgWdKg&feature=youtu.be

 

[nordo_2]

OK G4, I'm sitting on the outside looking in but let me see if I can make this a little easier for you to understand in your frac world. I guess you're making over $100K a year as a NJA captain. Let's say instead you're making around $60K a year like you guys did before the contract was signed at the end of 2004 (because AA pilots are making 15% less than their industry standard wages in 2000). Management offers a paltry raise so that at the end of your 6 year conract, plus RLA induced 4 more years without one, you will be making $69K a year in 2022, except subtract night/int'l override and soft time from new draconian work rules, so in 2022 you will make the same you did in 2004. Except you can kiss your 7.5% company 401K match goodbye, and now you have to work 9 on 5 off for the same pay you got for 7 and 7. Oh, and all the Beechjets and old citations will be outsourced to Netjets Lite resulting in hundreds of NJA furloughs, but furloughed pilots are welcome to apply for $19K/year to start! Maybe you will still make $60K. Maybe you will be displaced out of your CA seat and make $40K instead. Also, your company is losing money because while other companies like Flex and and Citationshares used their employee concessions to fund new Citation Xs and Gulfstreams (ever heard of them?) your beloved NJA is still flying around Sabreliners and Jetstars burning a crapload more fuel than the competition. This because a large amount of NJA concessions were used to fund management raises and obscene bonuses. So because of excessive management compensation and fuel burn NJA is losing money, files bankruptcy and blames the pilots because they work one day less per month than their competitors, while still having 4.5 BILLON DOLLARS cash in the bank. Given the choice between accepting all the above or doing everything in your power to LEGALLY change the above scenario, what would you do?

P.S.- While above is playing out, Flexjet who already made more than you just got a raise and is looking at another significant one in 3 months. The new Super Citationshares who merged with Flightoptions has an AIP on a contract with massive improvements above your current contract, and both of these contracts will allow much less outsourcing to their "lite" divisions than your management is trying to ram down your throats. Still want to bend over and take it up the potito? This is the choice every AA pilot must make. I do not envy their situation, but sometimes it truly is better to die fighting then live on your knees in fear.

Dewey, great description. I get it. A little background on G4: Probably a magement type from the inner workings of NetJets. FUD is either his main job description, or definitely an added ancillary duty/hobby. Claims not to be. Either way he comes from the glorified world of high-flying good old boy network-corporate.

No Union. The best working group a lazy-ass management team could hope for.

 

[G4dude]

He's a naive, ignorant prick!!

It's funny, I disagree with you but I don't call you a naive ignorant prick. Or is this just your way of communicating with everyone? Might need a vocabulary expansion, skippy.

 

[HA25]

It's funny, I disagree with you but I don't call you a naive ignorant prick. Or is this just your way of communicating with everyone? Might need a vocabulary expansion, skippy.

well you ARE naive and quite ignorant of the industry you work in.... I will say that the name calling is unnecessary but that's just the former moderator in my talking

 

[G4dude]

no, because "no job" and keeping your dignity is better than a $hitty job...

If you have ANY idea of the history at AMR, and the dichotomy between how well management members have done vs the pilots over the past decade plus you would not be saying such stupid and naive things.

I have had eleven flight departments close their doors on me. I know what it is to lose a job while trying to support a family. In a weak economy, keeping a fairly good job is better than losing it, it seems to me. Even if people disagree with me about this, I don't understand the ferocity of some of the posts here.

I have several friends at AA and several more who were at TWA. I am very well informed about the situation when they merged. It was UGLY. All that talk about union brotherhood, priceless.

 

[HA25]

I have had eleven flight departments close their doors on me.

don't you find it odd that they've all failed/closed even with you working so hard to please them and keep their costs down? So maybe the problem isn't a pilot one, but rather a management/organizational level one? In which case, let's pay the pilots well, across the board and let the organizational geniuses figure out how to keep the profits coming...

 

[G4dude]

well you ARE naive and quite ignorant of the industry you work in.... I will say that the name calling is unnecessary but that's just the former moderator in my talking

Thanks for that nice post. However, I have been in the industry for 35 years, so naivete and ignorance? I doubt it. We have the same set of facts, but our conclusions differ, that's all.
An example: I care what I and my pilot peers make, but I don't care what management makes, that is between them and the Board of Directors. Cheers!

 

[HA25]

An example: I care what I and my pilot peers make, but I don't care what management makes, that is between them and the Board of Directors. Cheers!

you do understand that it's all a piece of pie, and it has to be divided up, right? If mgmt wants a disproportionate share, it leaves you and your peers with less.. you get that, right?

 

[G4dude]

don't you find it odd that they've all failed/closed even with you working so hard to please them and keep their costs down? So maybe the problem isn't a pilot one, but rather a management/organizational level one? In which case, let's pay the pilots well, across the board and let the organizational geniuses figure out how to keep the profits coming...

A fair question. I worked for a lot of very small companies, some were managed pretty well, some just didn't make it because it is tough out there, several were not well managed. That's the breaks. If I wanted to have a say in how they were run, I should have invested my time and money in my own company. It was a rough 20 years though, and I am still climbing out of a financial hole as a result.

 

[HA25]

A fair question. I worked for a lot of very small companies, some were managed pretty well, some just didn't make it because it is tough out there, several were not well managed. That's the breaks. If I wanted to have a say in how they were run, I should have invested my time and money in my own company. It was a rough 20 years though, and I am still climbing out of a financial hole as a result.

that makes sense for your "corporate" pilot world where jets aren't the sole revenue generation, but in the schedule and non-scheudled airline world, the pilots are where the rubber meets the road... they ARE the point man of the revenue generation and deserve to be right behind the officers of the airline in terms of compensation, not a DISTANT second!

 

[G4dude]

you do understand that it's all a piece of pie, and it has to be divided up, right? If mgmt wants a disproportionate share, it leaves you and your peers with less.. you get that, right?

I get it, but don't feel it is my business what management makes. It is my business how I conduct my own life. I want my company to be as profitable as possible, and want to make as much as I can. If an employer doesn't pay me enough, I will look elsewhere, and not try to change their behavior by engaging in group coercion, with all due respect. These boots were made for walking, and that's just what they'll do...

 

[G4dude]

that makes sense for your "corporate" pilot world where jets aren't the sole revenue generation, but in the schedule and non-scheudled airline world, the pilots are where the rubber meets the road... they ARE the point man of the revenue generation and deserve to be right behind the officers of the airline in terms of compensation, not a DISTANT second!

I certainly want what you want, just don't believe in unionizing to achieve it. Just because you and I feel we "deserve" something doesn't necessarily mean the marketplace will provide it while keeping our employer healthy enough to stay in business.