FlexPilots

[dashtrasher]

That is about the most asinine statement that I have ever heard.

Then I guess you haven't been listening to many statements in this thread.

 

[The Architect]

Really?

The problem is you guys have a union. For everything one side gives there must be something taken in return.

As long as you guys have the 1108 he won't "give" you stuff. Even a good will gesture to the pilots won't get management anywhere with you. The union is a great wedge dividing your company. Until it goes away things won't get better.

Would the union "give" up all the crew bases you have for nothing in return. Of course not.

You guys live under a union, you should know how things work by now.

What about the reinstatement of the Flight Options pilots groups 401k?

The Flight Options employees were given the impression that this was the fault of the union. That is was "negotiated away." Really? Not so.

The company discontinued the Flight Options employees 401k prior to completion of the CBA. Note the LOA language:

WHEREAS, the parties have agreed to delay the effective date of subsection 29.2 of the Agreement due to current economic conditions impacting the Company?s business;

WHEREAS[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman], the parties intend for this LOA to become effective upon ratification of the Agreement;
[/FONT][/FONT]
The company needed the LOA because they had agreed to 401k provisions in the CBA. Now that had to change.

It goes on to say:

2. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]It shall not be a violation of this LOA or Section 29 of the Agreement if the Company makes a matching contribution that is less than the amounts specified in Section 29.2 of the Agreement. However, the initial Company matching contribution, and all increases in matching contributions described in Paragraph 2.(a) and 2.(b), whichever is applicable, of this LOA, regardless of whether the matching contributions are non-discretionary or discretionary matches under the 401(k) Plan, or a combination thereof, shall be subject to this Paragraph 2. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Flight Options management could of, and can, reinstate 401k matching ANY time they want. Even for a lesser amount than required by the CBA.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING is stopping Flight Options senior executives from starting this benefit. Certainly the union is not stopping it, rather the union has formally indicated they encourage the reinstatement of this benefit.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]How is an employee supposed to feel when their company won't reinstate such benefit, yet can spend millions, if not billions on other acquisitions?[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]What motivation is there for this difference between two employee groups under the same executive leadership?
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[The Architect]

Do Nothing?

I'm still surprised that the union is going to bring in the flex pilots and put it to a vote. Does the MEC not think it's a risky move? If you guys do nothing, then you can keep your union and we can keep playing in our own sandbox. If things get nasty we will be the ones asking for a vote.

Do nothing?

So it is acceptable for a party to a collective bargaining agreement to violate it and the other party not act?

The union failing the act would be actionable by the Flight Options pilot group. It would be the basis for failure to provide the Duty of Fair Representation.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

What about the reinstatement of the Flight Options pilots groups 401k?

The Flight Options employees were given the impression that this was the fault of the union. That is was "negotiated away." Really? Not so.

The company discontinued the Flight Options employees 401k prior to completion of the CBA. Note the LOA language:

WHEREAS, the parties have agreed to delay the effective date of subsection 29.2 of the Agreement due to current economic conditions impacting the Company?s business;

WHEREAS[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman], the parties intend for this LOA to become effective upon ratification of the Agreement;
[/FONT][/FONT]
The company needed the LOA because they had agreed to 401k provisions in the CBA. Now that had to change.

It goes on to say:

2. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]It shall not be a violation of this LOA or Section 29 of the Agreement if the Company makes a matching contribution that is less than the amounts specified in Section 29.2 of the Agreement. However, the initial Company matching contribution, and all increases in matching contributions described in Paragraph 2.(a) and 2.(b), whichever is applicable, of this LOA, regardless of whether the matching contributions are non-discretionary or discretionary matches under the 401(k) Plan, or a combination thereof, shall be subject to this Paragraph 2. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Flight Options management could of, and can, reinstate 401k matching ANY time they want. Even for a lesser amount than required by the CBA.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING is stopping Flight Options senior executives from starting this benefit. Certainly the union is not stopping it, rather the union has formally indicated they encourage the reinstatement of this benefit.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]How is an employee supposed to feel when their company won't reinstate such benefit, yet can spend millions, if not billions on other acquisitions?[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]What motivation is there for this difference between two employee groups under the same executive leadership?
[/FONT][/FONT]

I never said the union was keeping the company from giving back the 401(k) match. That woud be idiotic.

I stated that I didn't think the company would just give back the 401(k) match without negotiating something in return. That is what a union is all about. To get anything you must give something else up.

With a union in place nothing is ever given by either side without negotiating something in return.

 

[gret]

That is about the most asinine statement that I have ever heard.

...for the rest of us...what is "asinine" about it?

 

[dime line]

Yup I get that you guys felt you needed to unionize due to broken promises and all that. Had I been at options I bet I would have voted yes as well.

But, none of that nasty stuff has happened at flex. Yet. You're asking us to vote pro union based on the belief that things will go massively downhill. When you guys voted in a union things were horrible, and you knew a union would only make it better. Over at flex things are fine. Personally I'd rather wait until something crazy happens, then I'll vote twice. Since there is a chance we would lose pay, schedule, and benefits if we vote in the union then you have to agree it is riskier for us than it was/is for you. KR has said we can keep what we have. Do I believe him? I really don't know. But why not give it a chance before we play the union card? The threat of a union is almost as good as having one.

I'm still surprised that the union is going to bring in the flex pilots and put it to a vote. Does the MEC not think it's a risky move? If you guys do nothing, then you can keep your union and we can keep playing in our own sandbox. If things get nasty we will be the ones asking for a vote.

So if you understand that this happened to us, then why do you think it is any different? It took us about 8 years to finally vote yes for a union, so I think that it is safe to say we didn't rush to judgment.

 

[The Architect]

Traders Corner.

I never said the union was keeping the company from giving back the 401(k) match. That woud be idiotic.

I stated that I didn't think the company would just give back the 401(k) match without negotiating something in return. That is what a union is all about. To get anything you must give something else up.

With a union in place nothing is ever given by either side without negotiating something in return.

So, a company discontinues a 401k match due to "economic conditions impacting the Company's business." Years later, the economic conditions and company's business improves. Improves so much that multimillion dollar acquisitions occur.

Yet, their has to be a trade for reinstatement of benefits?

What would be a good trade for the reinstatement of benefits?

Or, rather, is the reinstatement of the 401k match being held for hostage-like purposes?

 

[squawk]

You believe that the profitability of FLOPS is the reason for the equity in that acquisition?

DAC is one partner of several. The capital is generated from Flexjet owners/investors. DAC would not be able to put this deal through without Guggenheim, et al.

 

[slowtation capt]

I never said the union was keeping the company from giving back the 401(k) match. That woud be idiotic.

I stated that I didn't think the company would just give back the 401(k) match without negotiating something in return. That is what a union is all about. To get anything you must give something else up.

With a union in place nothing is ever given by either side without negotiating something in return.

If KR is such a great person, why would he want something in return. He took it before the contract when times were bad. Now times are good, wouldn't you think KR would want to show is gratitude to the pilots that have been making him money for all these years. Wouldn't a little good will gesture from the company such as re-instating a 401K match help the company have a good solid footing with the pilot group and the Union.

It's not about what KR can get immediately in return for re-instating a 401K match from the company. It's what KR can get in return in the long run by bringing back something that he lied about in an open meeting about the Union taking away.

If KR wants to be the hero, if he wants to win over pilots, if he wants to keep the union away, wouldn't a simple things such as re-instating the 401K match, raising our pay to yours-RIGHT NOW help in that.

But I guess unless we give up something we won't get it.
I know, let's give up;

Our day 8 travel home rules
Our right to say no to over 14 hrs duty
Our right to say no to over 10/24
Our right to not be fired for saying "Man my day sucked today" to the wrong person
Our right to have a representative when the company decides that they want to bring us into to CGF because we didn't fly enough leg, or burned too much fuel during a quarter
Our right to have a 7/7 schedule
Our right.................................

 

[Club ORD FO]

Do nothing?

So it is acceptable for a party to a collective bargaining agreement to violate it and the other party not act?

The union failing the act would be actionable by the Flight Options pilot group. It would be the basis for failure to provide the Duty of Fair Representation.

Well perhaps "do nothing" was a poor choice words. How about an LOA that let's you keep your planes to yourselves and we keep our planes for us. I know, it's a dream. Nevermind.

In regards to the 401k, why is there any language in the contract at all that allows the company to take it away? Did KR work in a loop hole and then use it?

It's no secret KR hates the union. I'm sure he blames everything he can on them. Plus I think he is using the flex pilots as a way to vote out the union. Why would he want to merge the lists and have an even bigger union?

 

[slowtation capt]

well perhaps "do nothing" was a poor choice words. How about an loa that let's you keep your planes to yourselves and we keep our planes for us. I know, it's a dream. Nevermind.

In regards to the 401k, why is there any language in the contract at all that allows the company to take it away? Did kr work in a loop hole and then use it?

It's no secret kr hates the union. I'm sure he blames everything he can on them. Plus i think he is using the flex pilots as a way to vote out the union. Why would he want to merge the lists and have an even bigger union?

bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Architect]

Not a Dream

Well perhaps "do nothing" was a poor choice words. How about an LOA that let's you keep your planes to yourselves and we keep our planes for us. I know, it's a dream. Nevermind.

In regards to the 401k, why is there any language in the contract at all that allows the company to take it away? Did KR work in a loop hole and then use it?

It's no secret KR hates the union. I'm sure he blames everything he can on them. Plus I think he is using the flex pilots as a way to vote out the union. Why would he want to merge the lists and have an even bigger union?

"How about an LOA that let's you keep your planes to yourselves and we keep our planes for us." That's not a dream. That's part of what is negotiated in a fence agreement.

Flight Options pilots negotiated a first agreement. The company and union negotiated the 401k provisions of the tentative agreement. Then, the company discontinued the 401k match. The union could not stop the discontinuance of the 401k match since an agreement was not ratified yet.

The company and union entered into the LOA to address the company's discontinuance of the 401k match without changing the 401k provisions of the tentative agreement.

 

[993_Pilot]

Yup I get that you guys felt you needed to unionize due to broken promises and all that. Had I been at options I bet I would have voted yes as well. But, none of that nasty stuff has happened at flex. Yet. You're asking us to vote pro union based on the belief that things will go massively downhill.

What we are asking is for you to consider KR's management history. Simple as that.

But why not give it a chance before we play the union card? The threat of a union is almost as good as having one....Over at flex things are fine. Personally I'd rather wait until something crazy happens, then I'll vote twice.

In certain circumstances, that would probably be a wise move. In the aviation world, if we lose representation and our contract, it would take a minimum of 5-6 years to get a union drive going and get another "First" contract. That is a long time to be subject to "something crazy".

...Since there is a chance we would lose pay, schedule, and benefits if we vote in the union then you have to agree it is riskier for us than it was/is for you.

Maybe not. You are making big assumptions before any fence agreements have been agreed to. Instead, why not get some flex pilots involved in helping to make sure your interests and concerns are addressed? I think you might be surprised at what happens, even without your input.

...KR has said we can keep what we have. Do I believe him? I really don't know. But why not give it a chance before we play the union card? The threat of a union is almost as good as having one.

Almost, but not quite.

...If things get nasty we will be the ones asking for a vote.

And then after at least a year to get a union voted in, the negotiation process starts all over again. Probably another 4 or more years of posturing and BS to get a contract that you could have from day one without all the hassle and wait.

...In regards to the 401k, why is there any language in the contract at all that allows the company to take it away? Did KR work in a loop hole and then use it?

We didn't have a contract then. That's what happens during the negotiation process, Management takes hostages and makes you negotiate to get them back. Sometimes it's a benefit like a 401k, sometimes it's people, and sometimes it's both, like they did to FLOPS. Do you really want to go through that again?

... I think he is using the flex pilots as a way to vote out the union. Why would he want to merge the lists and have an even bigger union?

I know it, he doesn't.

 

[slowtation capt]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWA 2 ASA FO
The problem is you guys have a union. For everything one side gives there must be something taken in return.

As long as you guys have the 1108 he won't "give" you stuff. Even a good will gesture to the pilots won't get management anywhere with you. The union is a great wedge dividing your company. Until it goes away things won't get better.

Would the union "give" up all the crew bases you have for nothing in return. Of course not.

You guys live under a union, you should know how things work by now.


That is about the most asinine statement that I have ever heard.

...for the rest of us...what is "asinine" about it?

It's like saying that if I bring flowers home for my wife, I expect her to get down on her knees.

 

[wingsnthings]

Slow.... I am at a loss for words. You can't seriously believe the things you post on here.

 

[gret]

Slow.... I am at a loss for words. You can't seriously believe the things you post on here.

...or perhaps there are some articulation issues...I don't get what he is trying to say...and it is not a good thing to guess

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWA 2 ASA FO
The problem is you guys have a union. For everything one side gives there must be something taken in return.

As long as you guys have the 1108 he won't "give" you stuff. Even a good will gesture to the pilots won't get management anywhere with you. The union is a great wedge dividing your company. Until it goes away things won't get better.

Would the union "give" up all the crew bases you have for nothing in return. Of course not.

You guys live under a union, you should know how things work by now.


That is about the most asinine statement that I have ever heard.



It's like saying that if I bring flowers home for my wife, I expect her to get down on her knees.

If you are comparing your marriage to the relationship between the 1108 and management, you need marriage counseling.

 

[gogetit]

All true, except 401k match is not only 100% match up to 6% of earnings; there is an additional 3% contribution from the company if you are employed for the full year.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Marriage counseling! I love it! Only problem is, once the bond of trust has been broken, a lot of work has to be done to try to restore it.

 

[chief9404]

All true, except 401k match is not only 100% match up to 6% of earnings; there is an additional 3% contribution from the company if you are employed for the full year.

That's nice. The guy that just took over Flex from Bombardier gives the entire Flops organization ( union and non-union ) a 0% match.