flexjet

[Frac Daddy]

Weasel...

If you want to go fractional it's NetJets, Options or, maybe CitationShares. I had dinner with a Flex crew a couple of months ago. All this sutff jibes with what they said.

 

[ukcats]

As someone who left Flexjet to go to Netjets, my advice would be not to even consider them. It was that bad.

 

[RJL]

"It was bad"?? What do you mean? Please explain.

I am considering Flexjet right now and would appreciate whatever experience/advice you can share.

Thanks

RJ

 

[Semore Butts]

There is a reason for that!

Pilots' Wife is always pretty well on the mark. Vey informative, yet overly tactfull, and overly optomistic.
As a senior F.O. ( we call other F.O.'s under 2 years, "New guys"), there is no relief in sight.
The company could care less about the Morale. The reason they are hiring is they are losing so many F.O.'s and Cpt's for that matter. The F.O. pay scale is the same as that of the Flight Attendants. The reason is is that nobody was supposed to remain an F.O. for over a year. Next month will have been a year since the last upgrade. There are people that were hired several weeks before me that have been Cpt's for over a year.
I have heard on a positive note that the paperwork for the upgrades is on board our first "Global Express". (we were supposed to have recieved several of them by now, we have none)
Flex knows that they can always find pilots. They have no interest in the morale, or the well being of the people who work for them. In fact they are working on a plan now to hire Ab Initio guys (sorry, I'm sure that's spelled wrong).
We are nothing but a bunch of "lab rats".
They provide no information as to the short term or long term. The reason? Because they themselves don't know at the Dallas management level.
Somebody is going to say, "be more specific". Well I really have better things to do on my brief time in rest, but I think you are worth it, my fellow aviators young and old!
Here ya go;
We used to take senior Lear Cpt's and put them into the right seat of the Challenger making Lear Cpt's pay. Now the company hires guys off the street into the challenger. They don't have to pay them Lear Cpt pay, no Lear Cpt moves into the seat, no Lear F.O. upgrades. End result, a young guy comes in, doesn't make Cpt for 4 or 5 years, and it takes them another year or two to get that PIC time for the airlines.
We used to have a 60%/40% Cpt to F.O. ratio. They have changed that to 55%/45%. Result, less Cpt's, longer to upgrade.
We have gone from 4.5 pilots per aircraft, to 3.6 pilots per aircraft, Result, longer duty days and working alot longer on your fist and last days. (Now management weenies are gonna dispute this, I'm no mathmetician, or english major, but if you take the number of pilots and divide by the number of airplanes, it will give you the ratio. We went from almost 500 pilots to 370 something now, maybe even less!)
We now have the PBS bid system where you go in and bid what days you want off or on. The bid you get is based first on the operational needs of the company. Forget seniority by the way. It is very common for a guy junior to you to get more of the schedule you wanted. This is because of a bunch of bazaar "parameters" that are out into the computer. When the PBS came out, everybody, and I mean everybody (except the management people), started coming out with these 7 on 3 off schedules.
We used to stay at Hilton's, and Crowne Plaza's. Now we stay at Comfort Inns. We used to put the hotels on our credit cards and rack up the hotel points. Now we have a CLC direct bill card which allows us none of the extra "perks" we used to get.
We used to airline directly to our aircraft via American and home and seldom fly on the first day. Now we go on whatever cheapist fare is available, and end up being on the road all day trying to get to the aircraft.
These are only a few issues, there are many more.
Did I mention that we now get our catering on real China with real Napkins? Imagine what I'm thinking as I throw it into the trash when I am done?
I have to go, I will leave you with this question.
How many people have you heard of that have left EJA to go to Flexjet? Now ask yourself, How many people have left Flexjet to go to EJA?
I didn't even talk about pay, that will have to come another day.

I hope you are all well. To my Flexjet "Line Dog" Pilot friends; You are good people, I know you will serve our owners like the "Pro's" you are

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Don't buy all of the negative hype. Flexjet is a good place to work, it has its pros and cons just like anywhere else.

FACTS:

The schedule is divided into 28 day months. You can work 15-19 days per month, the average is 17, which is guaranteed. You can bid to work more or less, but that's not guaranteed. There is an online bidding interface at the crew website that allows you to pick what your schedule is. If you're senior, and smart enough to know the rules (i.e., max 7 days on, min 3 days off, unless you waive to 2), you can get exactly what you want. There are some 7 day lines, but if you work 7 you get 4 off (waiveable). The normal min is 3 days off. Contrary to a previous post, it is seniority based. There is a lot of whining about this on the company message board. The complaints almost always are because a few pilots didn't understand how to bid. These guys didn't take the time to go to the class to learn the system, of course.

The scheduling system uses projections to know how many pilots are required during a typical day. Then the pilots bid on the demand. This uses crews efficiently, but it also means there are some scheduling restraints. Just like anywhere else. The difference is, ours are smarter.

There were layoffs last year inside the office and on the line, some were outside of seniority. Right or wrong? I don't know, don't know who was canned outside of seniority, maybe they deserved it more than a newhire. Compare a newhire who is happy as heck to have his job and a guy who's a pain in the neck to everybody and the company. I haven't heard of anyone who misses the guys who were canned then. I drop in and talk to my fleet manager every once in a while. He's a nice guy, and does what he can for me, I know. The other guys seem nice too. They're not scary or mean like some people like to imagine. I don't think I'm going to be fired.

Upgrades aren't under a year like they used to be, they've stretched to the 2-year mark. This is because of a poor year in sales last year, and changes in ratios. I hear this is a much better year for sales. I think there will be upgrades this summer/fall.

The complaint about new-hire CL FOs stopping upgrades is a popular misconception, but it doesn't stand up to logic. People used to move from LR Cpt. to CL FO to CL Cpt. Now you can be hired as a CL or LR FO, upgrade into the Lear, and eventually become a CL Cpt. (Not anytime soon) This change has NOT caused a long-term stoppage in FO upgrades, because we haven't added a bunch of CLs to the fleet. Adding CLs will bring Lear Cpts into the fleet, bringing FO upgrades in Lears... Think about that for a while, it will come to you.

There's complaining about hotels. True, we don't stay in as many nice hotels, but we still stay in many hiltons, doubletrees, etc. There are a lot of Holiday Inns nowadays. It's not 5-star luxury, but it's not bad. The guys who complain about losing perks from the CLC direct billing are probably the same ones who complained about having to use their credit card (company-issued, personally guaranteed) to "front" the company money.

I've been on one airline recently (past month or so), I've been flying out of ADS and back to ADS or DAL quite often in the past few months. I haven't been on an airline besides AA or Delta for at least 6 months - that was Southwest, in November I think.

FO pay is a problem, a raise would be nice, or be paid equivalent seniority Cpt. pay when they upgrade instead of starting as a 1st yr. cpt. Anyone with experience in aviation knows things change, this company is not going down the drain, so upgrade times will improve.

Flexjet is doing well overall, they posted a profit for the first time. Probably because they're a business and have to make money. I expect Montreal kind of requires positive financial performance. But Montreal isn't stupid either, they're going to make sure their investment pays off in the long term. Rumors regarding sales are just that.

Overall, the truth is a lot different than the bitching you see here and elsewhere. There are just some "bad apples" that are unhappy, just like everywhere else.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

One more thing, there was an outright lie in a previous post. there is no such thing as 2 days off, unless you specifically waive for it. I have done so specifically so I could have a particular day off (a wedding), because that was the only way it would work. I got the day off that I wanted.

 

[Semore Butts]

Spoken like a true (I've got mine) Cpt

I would have to assume by the previous post that the person is a Cpt.
Where did you get your math degree bub? If you are hiring F.O's into the right seat of the Challenger, you are blocking the Lear Cpt's from moving into the right seat, and letting an F.O. upgrade into the Lear left seat. Just changing that would be a great morale booster for the pilots.
357 is correct, as time goes on people are learning how to properly use the bid system. But only recently was it changed that allowed you to get at least 4 days off between 7 day rotations. I hope the 2 day off remark wasn't pointed at me because I didn't say that.
357 is also correct in pointing out that there are some restraints, and that the schedule is based on crew demand. The company demand is the first priority, and of course profitabiliy is what keeps us in business, right? Get more work, with less pilots!
357 please re-state your sentence, there are F.O.'s past the 2 and 1/2 year mark with no indication from the company of when any upgrades' will come. I have heard August, but then I heard there would be some "great news in June".
357 is right, the people working in the office are nice people, and the pilots are the "salt of the earth". I like Flex alot, and am agonizing over having to go find another job. People who are hired in now know that the upgrade time has been lengthened to several years. When I hired in we were told 2000 pilots by 2004. The guys we are hiring now are to replace the pilots leaving. It is very common knowledge that the managements attitude is, "If you don't like it leave", to qoute one of the supervisors. That's all I'll say about that.
357 is correct in my opinion, the guys that are bitching about the CLC, are probably the guys that were bitchin about putting it on their credit card. I was not one of them. They pictured it to be like they were "real live airline pilots" where they would walk in and grab a key and go. That's not the case.
So let me end by saying that if you go in knowing that you will not be upgraded for a few years, that bottom line profit for the company and not quality of life for you is item one, that you have no protection from being terminated at any time, then you will be fine. There are of course many other issues. I know 357 thinks I'm a whining "bad apple". So be it, If I were making Cpt pay, I would probably be saying the same thing he is.
The coming of the Continental will be an exciting time for Flex in the near (we hope) future. How they are gonna staff it, and what the pay will be is a whole other can of worms to be open at a later date. Will the Union be voted in? That's yet to be seen. That puts us in a "catch 22" as well. If company was going to "throw us a bone", it wouldn't be wise until after the union vote fails, or whenever they are bargaining for the first contract.
Again, lot's of good people at Flex. Lots of change going on. It will be an interesting next few years.
357, I hope we can have a beer some time. I consider myself a professional, and I consider you one as well. I'm glad we can have different opinions, and speak our minds here. There are different views for every situation. Take care.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Semore, maybe we HAVE had a beer together before!

Regarding the CL thing:

In the "old days", we'd get a CL, some CL FOs would upgrade, some Lear Captains would move into the right seat of the CL, and some Lear FOs would upgrade in a Learjet.

Say we get a new Challenger now. What happens next? Lear Captains move into the Left seat of the CL. We hire FO's for it, or even move some FOs from other fleets if those ratios need to be adjusted, right? Then some FOs are upgraded to fill the Lear Captain seats that were emptied.

What's the difference? There was a difference for a while, as the Senior CL FOs upgraded in their ship, and new FOs began to populate the airplane, but now there isn't a difference I can think of. It drives the same number of upgrades.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Assuming...

Semore, I'll assume by your nickname that you're an ass man.

 

[Semore Butts]

Ass man, you bet!!!! Why not?

I still don't agree with you man.

If 4 Challenger F.O.s leave, and they hire 4 more CL F.O.'s, there is no movement among the Lear Cpt's.

If 4 CL F.O.'s leave and they put in 4 Lear Cpt's, then that leaves 4 Lear Cpt positions, result movement, and upgrade.

I have recently heard that actual rumor, about going back to the old way. I would sure like to see that happen.

Thanks for respecting my opinion 357.

Now, whoever it was that pasted my post over to the union site;

Bad Dog!!!!! BBAAAAADDDD DDDDOOOGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That gives the impresssion that I'm pro-union.

That is a personal decision that we as pilots are going to have to make should a vote occur.

It's gonna be hard on us all, no matter which way it goes.

Just remember, the whole idea was originally to do this because we love it so much. Lets' no lose sight of that.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

R**, you are right, but the career progression wasn't designed around attrition. It was designed around normal fleet growth. I don't think any company designs career paths around attrition like that.

I certainly respect your opinion. You are a professional, and a human being, and you are entitled to your opinion. On the other hand, you'd better be able to logically defend it!

 

[Humblepilot]

Sidebar

Does anyone know how long you can anticipate from submitting the application to potential interview is running right now?

And what the competitive minimums are?

Humble

 

[vixin]

Mins are 2500tt, 500 multi and 500 turbine and they stick to these mins.
As for how long it takes its anyones guess. Did you have anyone walk your resume in? That would help tremendously. It needs to get in the hands of Karen Parr. That will get you ahead of all the others with out a recommendation.
If you have any other questions feel free to post or pm me. I will be glad to help any way I can.

 

[bayoubandit]

I faxed my resume in and had it walked in twice by a FlexJet pilot. Also a few other Flex pilots I know put in a good word. This was months ago. I have talked to them on the phone 3-4 times following up, I forget by now, and I haven't heard crap. I live 15 minutes from TEB, which they said they liked since they were looking for guys to be based at TEB.

FWIW, the guys I know there don't really like it and most are looking or counting the days until they can get out. My only guess is that since I am a furloughed major guy, they weren't interested or else my connections have bad reputations. Who knows, but I'm still looking. If your furloughed, forget about sticking your nose around TEB looking for a job, they don't like us furloughed types to much.

 

[vixin]

I do not know what your problems is. Maybe one of your so called friends didnt do you any favors. I know the last class had three USAirways guys in it. I had a friend from USAirways hired three months ago. I dont know! Just like the rest of this industry, hiring is crazy. The is no rhyme or reason why most of us do not get hired and others do. Look at how many of us airlines overlooked just to take lower qualified individuals. Keep trying and good luck.
As for your other comments. Things are getting better here at Flex and some of our guys are a little narrow minded. I know b/c I used to be one of them. Maybe we will organize and have a bigger voice. However, some pilots wouldnt be happy flying 3 days a month making $200,00 a year and living wherever they wanted. Some just arent happy unless they are complaining. Those that are should give until the beginning of next year. I think they will be very surprised. Every pilot group has the bad apples and rotten apples.