Brett Hull
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falcondriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
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I spoke to someone in Flexjet's Dallas office in April, sent him my resume in May, and was told yesterday he was laid off with several others.
Did they lay off pilots or just admin. type office people? I read a lot about Flight Options and Executive Jet here. Why isn't there any talk about Flexjet? Are they that good or that bad to work for? Is there something I am missing? I know Bombardier has had some setbacks, but I though FLexjet was A-OK.
RJ
Did they lay off pilots or just admin. type office people? I read a lot about Flight Options and Executive Jet here. Why isn't there any talk about Flexjet? Are they that good or that bad to work for? Is there something I am missing? I know Bombardier has had some setbacks, but I though FLexjet was A-OK.
RJ
NJA Capt
Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2002
- Posts
- 462
Although I do not work at Flexjet, I do speak to their pilots often. None of the pilots I have spoken to have been upbeat, regardless if they were captain or FO.
All have spoken of reduced fleet size (less than 100 aircraft...est.), 2 year FOs with no upgrade in sight, downgraded hotels, bad labor relations, etc. I don't seem to cross paths with Flex'ers as much as I used to, either in the air or at the FBOs. I'm not sure what is going on there. I wish them the best of luck. It doesn't appear that Montreal is interested in making them the powerhouse they once were.
Regards,
NJA
All have spoken of reduced fleet size (less than 100 aircraft...est.), 2 year FOs with no upgrade in sight, downgraded hotels, bad labor relations, etc. I don't seem to cross paths with Flex'ers as much as I used to, either in the air or at the FBOs. I'm not sure what is going on there. I wish them the best of luck. It doesn't appear that Montreal is interested in making them the powerhouse they once were.
Regards,
NJA
Pilot's Wife
Active member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2002
- Posts
- 33
Where to Begin?
I'm not sure what all to tell you about Flexjet. First off, for those who don't know, my husband is a CA at Flexjet. And he loves flying learjets for them. With that said, most of what NJA Capt says is also true. There have been some tough times for Flex. I also think it's interesting that not many people post on here regarding Flex.
We haven't heard of any layoffs in the offices. We know of some new pilots though so I don't have any idea what happened with RJL. I can't imagine they are laying office personnel off when Flex had it's best quarter ever last quarter. I may be wrong in this, but I think they were the only fractional who posted a profit last quarter.
There have been some serious "labor problems" for the last 1-2 years. Well before 9/11. Upgrades are non existent and some of the other issues mentioned by other posts are true also. The hotel issue is a big one right now. Flying 7 on and 3 off is biggie too. Also a reason other pilots don't see them as much in FBO's is because the company is regularly flying the pilots 12+ hour days. They are in the air all the time now. It makes for some long days as a pilot, but it also could be part of the reason for making a profit last quarter.
Any other info you want let me know. As far as I know they are still accepting resumes and hiring.
I'm not sure what all to tell you about Flexjet. First off, for those who don't know, my husband is a CA at Flexjet. And he loves flying learjets for them. With that said, most of what NJA Capt says is also true. There have been some tough times for Flex. I also think it's interesting that not many people post on here regarding Flex.
We haven't heard of any layoffs in the offices. We know of some new pilots though so I don't have any idea what happened with RJL. I can't imagine they are laying office personnel off when Flex had it's best quarter ever last quarter. I may be wrong in this, but I think they were the only fractional who posted a profit last quarter.
There have been some serious "labor problems" for the last 1-2 years. Well before 9/11. Upgrades are non existent and some of the other issues mentioned by other posts are true also. The hotel issue is a big one right now. Flying 7 on and 3 off is biggie too. Also a reason other pilots don't see them as much in FBO's is because the company is regularly flying the pilots 12+ hour days. They are in the air all the time now. It makes for some long days as a pilot, but it also could be part of the reason for making a profit last quarter.
Any other info you want let me know. As far as I know they are still accepting resumes and hiring.
I don't want to beat a horse when it's down on its knees but I will give you my insight into Flexjet.
There are many reasons why people at FX are so unhappy but here is a big one. When they laid-off people in October they did it OUT of seniority. They basically laid-off people they didn't like and after they got ride of those people they went to the bottom of the seniority list and laid off about 7 guys that were new-hires. So, for those of you who think a UNION isn't worth the $$$$$....think again!!
Nevertheless, FX has continued to go down the tubes thanks mostly to Montreal. Flexjet is about the most Micromanaged Company I have ever seen - the "Big Boys" up in BC tell the "Managers" in ADS what to do and they do it. As a result there is massive understaffing....people are flying 7/2 and 7/3 schedules consistently, poor hotels (CLC Card) and upgrades are now 3-4 years as the fleet continues to shrink. Management does not listen to the pilots and has now basically taken the stand of: "If you don't like it, leave. There are plenty of people who want your job." The "Bean Counters" have taken over FX and the results are evident.
There is again a push toward Unionization at Flexjet but don¡¦t think it will ever happen and if it does happen Bombardier will probably just shutdown Flexjet as it's not a moneymaker and don't want to deal with additional labor issues.
Just my 2 cents from a former Flexjeter ļ
There are many reasons why people at FX are so unhappy but here is a big one. When they laid-off people in October they did it OUT of seniority. They basically laid-off people they didn't like and after they got ride of those people they went to the bottom of the seniority list and laid off about 7 guys that were new-hires. So, for those of you who think a UNION isn't worth the $$$$$....think again!!
Nevertheless, FX has continued to go down the tubes thanks mostly to Montreal. Flexjet is about the most Micromanaged Company I have ever seen - the "Big Boys" up in BC tell the "Managers" in ADS what to do and they do it. As a result there is massive understaffing....people are flying 7/2 and 7/3 schedules consistently, poor hotels (CLC Card) and upgrades are now 3-4 years as the fleet continues to shrink. Management does not listen to the pilots and has now basically taken the stand of: "If you don't like it, leave. There are plenty of people who want your job." The "Bean Counters" have taken over FX and the results are evident.
There is again a push toward Unionization at Flexjet but don¡¦t think it will ever happen and if it does happen Bombardier will probably just shutdown Flexjet as it's not a moneymaker and don't want to deal with additional labor issues.
Just my 2 cents from a former Flexjeter ļ
jetwash
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Posts
- 879
I am sorry to hear that Flex management is putting the screws to the pilots.
I was told that over a year ago Flight Options wanted to enter into talks with Flex for a merger but were turned away. Then Options went to Travel Air and worked out an agreement. A week before the Flight Options / Travel Air deal was announced Flex contacted Flight Options and said they were now interested but Flight Options told them it will have to wait a while.
I know that Ken Ricci at Flight Options wants to grow the company quick to match EJA in size ASAP so another merger might be in the future for Flex and Options once everything is settled with Travel Air.
As for the union issues, the teamsters are trying to get into Flight Options now and I was told by an EJA union rep that their plans are to get into all the fractionals and set a standard contract for all pilots at all the fractions with regards to money, pensions work rules etc...
I was told that over a year ago Flight Options wanted to enter into talks with Flex for a merger but were turned away. Then Options went to Travel Air and worked out an agreement. A week before the Flight Options / Travel Air deal was announced Flex contacted Flight Options and said they were now interested but Flight Options told them it will have to wait a while.
I know that Ken Ricci at Flight Options wants to grow the company quick to match EJA in size ASAP so another merger might be in the future for Flex and Options once everything is settled with Travel Air.
As for the union issues, the teamsters are trying to get into Flight Options now and I was told by an EJA union rep that their plans are to get into all the fractionals and set a standard contract for all pilots at all the fractions with regards to money, pensions work rules etc...
I heard about recent layoff in the Flexjet Dallas office last month- not sure if this also applied to Flexjet pilots.
I was also told that Flexjet laid off a significant amount of pilots and other staff last Fall- I didn't 100% believe the story, so I searched and found this article- I guess it's true.
24 October 2001
The Canadian Press
MONTREAL (CP) _ Bombardier Aerospace, battered by turmoil in the global airline industry, is set to announce production plans for a new business jet Thursday.
Aviation journalists and aerospace industry leaders have been convoked to the company's headquarters in the Montreal suburb of Dorval for a briefing on the new aircraft, which a company spokesman said Wednesday was a business jet.
She refused to give further details.
The company, the world market leader in regional aircraft, is also a leader in the business jet field. Analysts say business aviation is the only industry sector that has not felt a dramatic impact of the worldwide aviation slowdown since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United States.
The new aircraft is probably a derivative of an existing model. Bombardier makes the Challenger 604 wide-body corporate jet in Dorval, while producing the three-member Learjet family of smaller business jets in Wichita, Kan.
It also makes two large corporate jets: the long-range Global Express, and the Continental.
The company, a unit of Bombardier Inc. of Montreal, is the third-largest civil aerospace company in the world, well behind Boeing Co. and Airbus Industrie.
Besides manufacturing aircraft, it has a growing business jet fractional ownership company called Bombardier Flexjet, and does aircraft maintenance and pilot training.
However the company had to announce last month the layoff of 3,800 employees in the aerospace sector to cope with the aviation slowdown it expects will translate into lower aircraft sales. And if sales don't pick up next year, the company warns it could chop a further 2,700 jobs.
Bombardier Inc.'s other divisions also make rail transportation equipment and motorized recreational products like the Ski-Doo.
The company employs 79,000 people in 24 countries in the Americas, Europe and Asia-Pacific. Revenues for its fiscal year ended Jan. 31, 2001 totalled $16.1 billion.
In trading on the Toronto stock market Wednesday, Bombardier shares closed unchanged at $12 in trading of more than 3.6 million shares.
I was also told that Flexjet laid off a significant amount of pilots and other staff last Fall- I didn't 100% believe the story, so I searched and found this article- I guess it's true.
24 October 2001
The Canadian Press
MONTREAL (CP) _ Bombardier Aerospace, battered by turmoil in the global airline industry, is set to announce production plans for a new business jet Thursday.
Aviation journalists and aerospace industry leaders have been convoked to the company's headquarters in the Montreal suburb of Dorval for a briefing on the new aircraft, which a company spokesman said Wednesday was a business jet.
She refused to give further details.
The company, the world market leader in regional aircraft, is also a leader in the business jet field. Analysts say business aviation is the only industry sector that has not felt a dramatic impact of the worldwide aviation slowdown since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United States.
The new aircraft is probably a derivative of an existing model. Bombardier makes the Challenger 604 wide-body corporate jet in Dorval, while producing the three-member Learjet family of smaller business jets in Wichita, Kan.
It also makes two large corporate jets: the long-range Global Express, and the Continental.
The company, a unit of Bombardier Inc. of Montreal, is the third-largest civil aerospace company in the world, well behind Boeing Co. and Airbus Industrie.
Besides manufacturing aircraft, it has a growing business jet fractional ownership company called Bombardier Flexjet, and does aircraft maintenance and pilot training.
However the company had to announce last month the layoff of 3,800 employees in the aerospace sector to cope with the aviation slowdown it expects will translate into lower aircraft sales. And if sales don't pick up next year, the company warns it could chop a further 2,700 jobs.
Bombardier Inc.'s other divisions also make rail transportation equipment and motorized recreational products like the Ski-Doo.
The company employs 79,000 people in 24 countries in the Americas, Europe and Asia-Pacific. Revenues for its fiscal year ended Jan. 31, 2001 totalled $16.1 billion.
In trading on the Toronto stock market Wednesday, Bombardier shares closed unchanged at $12 in trading of more than 3.6 million shares.
Yes they did lay off in October. And that was in part, a witch hunt. However, they have been hiring pilots and office staff for the last few months. They are also planning on hiring pilots for the next few months. Things are difficult at flex now, but they are looking better. They had a lot of growing pains. We will have to wait and see what happens. Everyone fly safe and I hope you are doing well.
TheFlyingWeasel
Member
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2002
- Posts
- 24
So, in short for someone shopping for a fractional slot needs to rethink the FlexJets situation before applying?
I’m looking hard at the fractional side and was beginning to compile my files on the companies.
Gonna print this post out and file it with my FX stuff.
Thanks guys and gals for the info
Weasel
I’m looking hard at the fractional side and was beginning to compile my files on the companies.
Gonna print this post out and file it with my FX stuff.
Thanks guys and gals for the info
Weasel
Frac Daddy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2001
- Posts
- 384
Semore Butts
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2002
- Posts
- 670
There is a reason for that!
Pilots' Wife is always pretty well on the mark. Vey informative, yet overly tactfull, and overly optomistic.
As a senior F.O. ( we call other F.O.'s under 2 years, "New guys"), there is no relief in sight.
The company could care less about the Morale. The reason they are hiring is they are losing so many F.O.'s and Cpt's for that matter. The F.O. pay scale is the same as that of the Flight Attendants. The reason is is that nobody was supposed to remain an F.O. for over a year. Next month will have been a year since the last upgrade. There are people that were hired several weeks before me that have been Cpt's for over a year.
I have heard on a positive note that the paperwork for the upgrades is on board our first "Global Express". (we were supposed to have recieved several of them by now, we have none)
Flex knows that they can always find pilots. They have no interest in the morale, or the well being of the people who work for them. In fact they are working on a plan now to hire Ab Initio guys (sorry, I'm sure that's spelled wrong).
We are nothing but a bunch of "lab rats".
They provide no information as to the short term or long term. The reason? Because they themselves don't know at the Dallas management level.
Somebody is going to say, "be more specific". Well I really have better things to do on my brief time in rest, but I think you are worth it, my fellow aviators young and old!
Here ya go;
We used to take senior Lear Cpt's and put them into the right seat of the Challenger making Lear Cpt's pay. Now the company hires guys off the street into the challenger. They don't have to pay them Lear Cpt pay, no Lear Cpt moves into the seat, no Lear F.O. upgrades. End result, a young guy comes in, doesn't make Cpt for 4 or 5 years, and it takes them another year or two to get that PIC time for the airlines.
We used to have a 60%/40% Cpt to F.O. ratio. They have changed that to 55%/45%. Result, less Cpt's, longer to upgrade.
We have gone from 4.5 pilots per aircraft, to 3.6 pilots per aircraft, Result, longer duty days and working alot longer on your fist and last days. (Now management weenies are gonna dispute this, I'm no mathmetician, or english major, but if you take the number of pilots and divide by the number of airplanes, it will give you the ratio. We went from almost 500 pilots to 370 something now, maybe even less!)
We now have the PBS bid system where you go in and bid what days you want off or on. The bid you get is based first on the operational needs of the company. Forget seniority by the way. It is very common for a guy junior to you to get more of the schedule you wanted. This is because of a bunch of bazaar "parameters" that are out into the computer. When the PBS came out, everybody, and I mean everybody (except the management people), started coming out with these 7 on 3 off schedules.
We used to stay at Hilton's, and Crowne Plaza's. Now we stay at Comfort Inns. We used to put the hotels on our credit cards and rack up the hotel points. Now we have a CLC direct bill card which allows us none of the extra "perks" we used to get.
We used to airline directly to our aircraft via American and home and seldom fly on the first day. Now we go on whatever cheapist fare is available, and end up being on the road all day trying to get to the aircraft.
These are only a few issues, there are many more.
Did I mention that we now get our catering on real China with real Napkins? Imagine what I'm thinking as I throw it into the trash when I am done?
I have to go, I will leave you with this question.
How many people have you heard of that have left EJA to go to Flexjet? Now ask yourself, How many people have left Flexjet to go to EJA?
I didn't even talk about pay, that will have to come another day.
I hope you are all well. To my Flexjet "Line Dog" Pilot friends; You are good people, I know you will serve our owners like the "Pro's" you are
Pilots' Wife is always pretty well on the mark. Vey informative, yet overly tactfull, and overly optomistic.
As a senior F.O. ( we call other F.O.'s under 2 years, "New guys"), there is no relief in sight.
The company could care less about the Morale. The reason they are hiring is they are losing so many F.O.'s and Cpt's for that matter. The F.O. pay scale is the same as that of the Flight Attendants. The reason is is that nobody was supposed to remain an F.O. for over a year. Next month will have been a year since the last upgrade. There are people that were hired several weeks before me that have been Cpt's for over a year.
I have heard on a positive note that the paperwork for the upgrades is on board our first "Global Express". (we were supposed to have recieved several of them by now, we have none)
Flex knows that they can always find pilots. They have no interest in the morale, or the well being of the people who work for them. In fact they are working on a plan now to hire Ab Initio guys (sorry, I'm sure that's spelled wrong).
We are nothing but a bunch of "lab rats".
They provide no information as to the short term or long term. The reason? Because they themselves don't know at the Dallas management level.
Somebody is going to say, "be more specific". Well I really have better things to do on my brief time in rest, but I think you are worth it, my fellow aviators young and old!
Here ya go;
We used to take senior Lear Cpt's and put them into the right seat of the Challenger making Lear Cpt's pay. Now the company hires guys off the street into the challenger. They don't have to pay them Lear Cpt pay, no Lear Cpt moves into the seat, no Lear F.O. upgrades. End result, a young guy comes in, doesn't make Cpt for 4 or 5 years, and it takes them another year or two to get that PIC time for the airlines.
We used to have a 60%/40% Cpt to F.O. ratio. They have changed that to 55%/45%. Result, less Cpt's, longer to upgrade.
We have gone from 4.5 pilots per aircraft, to 3.6 pilots per aircraft, Result, longer duty days and working alot longer on your fist and last days. (Now management weenies are gonna dispute this, I'm no mathmetician, or english major, but if you take the number of pilots and divide by the number of airplanes, it will give you the ratio. We went from almost 500 pilots to 370 something now, maybe even less!)
We now have the PBS bid system where you go in and bid what days you want off or on. The bid you get is based first on the operational needs of the company. Forget seniority by the way. It is very common for a guy junior to you to get more of the schedule you wanted. This is because of a bunch of bazaar "parameters" that are out into the computer. When the PBS came out, everybody, and I mean everybody (except the management people), started coming out with these 7 on 3 off schedules.
We used to stay at Hilton's, and Crowne Plaza's. Now we stay at Comfort Inns. We used to put the hotels on our credit cards and rack up the hotel points. Now we have a CLC direct bill card which allows us none of the extra "perks" we used to get.
We used to airline directly to our aircraft via American and home and seldom fly on the first day. Now we go on whatever cheapist fare is available, and end up being on the road all day trying to get to the aircraft.
These are only a few issues, there are many more.
Did I mention that we now get our catering on real China with real Napkins? Imagine what I'm thinking as I throw it into the trash when I am done?
I have to go, I will leave you with this question.
How many people have you heard of that have left EJA to go to Flexjet? Now ask yourself, How many people have left Flexjet to go to EJA?
I didn't even talk about pay, that will have to come another day.
I hope you are all well. To my Flexjet "Line Dog" Pilot friends; You are good people, I know you will serve our owners like the "Pro's" you are
flexlrpilot357
Archbishop of Slack
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2002
- Posts
- 180
Don't buy all of the negative hype. Flexjet is a good place to work, it has its pros and cons just like anywhere else.
FACTS:
The schedule is divided into 28 day months. You can work 15-19 days per month, the average is 17, which is guaranteed. You can bid to work more or less, but that's not guaranteed. There is an online bidding interface at the crew website that allows you to pick what your schedule is. If you're senior, and smart enough to know the rules (i.e., max 7 days on, min 3 days off, unless you waive to 2), you can get exactly what you want. There are some 7 day lines, but if you work 7 you get 4 off (waiveable). The normal min is 3 days off. Contrary to a previous post, it is seniority based. There is a lot of whining about this on the company message board. The complaints almost always are because a few pilots didn't understand how to bid. These guys didn't take the time to go to the class to learn the system, of course.
The scheduling system uses projections to know how many pilots are required during a typical day. Then the pilots bid on the demand. This uses crews efficiently, but it also means there are some scheduling restraints. Just like anywhere else. The difference is, ours are smarter.
There were layoffs last year inside the office and on the line, some were outside of seniority. Right or wrong? I don't know, don't know who was canned outside of seniority, maybe they deserved it more than a newhire. Compare a newhire who is happy as heck to have his job and a guy who's a pain in the neck to everybody and the company. I haven't heard of anyone who misses the guys who were canned then. I drop in and talk to my fleet manager every once in a while. He's a nice guy, and does what he can for me, I know. The other guys seem nice too. They're not scary or mean like some people like to imagine. I don't think I'm going to be fired.
Upgrades aren't under a year like they used to be, they've stretched to the 2-year mark. This is because of a poor year in sales last year, and changes in ratios. I hear this is a much better year for sales. I think there will be upgrades this summer/fall.
The complaint about new-hire CL FOs stopping upgrades is a popular misconception, but it doesn't stand up to logic. People used to move from LR Cpt. to CL FO to CL Cpt. Now you can be hired as a CL or LR FO, upgrade into the Lear, and eventually become a CL Cpt. (Not anytime soon) This change has NOT caused a long-term stoppage in FO upgrades, because we haven't added a bunch of CLs to the fleet. Adding CLs will bring Lear Cpts into the fleet, bringing FO upgrades in Lears... Think about that for a while, it will come to you.
There's complaining about hotels. True, we don't stay in as many nice hotels, but we still stay in many hiltons, doubletrees, etc. There are a lot of Holiday Inns nowadays. It's not 5-star luxury, but it's not bad. The guys who complain about losing perks from the CLC direct billing are probably the same ones who complained about having to use their credit card (company-issued, personally guaranteed) to "front" the company money.
I've been on one airline recently (past month or so), I've been flying out of ADS and back to ADS or DAL quite often in the past few months. I haven't been on an airline besides AA or Delta for at least 6 months - that was Southwest, in November I think.
FO pay is a problem, a raise would be nice, or be paid equivalent seniority Cpt. pay when they upgrade instead of starting as a 1st yr. cpt. Anyone with experience in aviation knows things change, this company is not going down the drain, so upgrade times will improve.
Flexjet is doing well overall, they posted a profit for the first time. Probably because they're a business and have to make money. I expect Montreal kind of requires positive financial performance. But Montreal isn't stupid either, they're going to make sure their investment pays off in the long term. Rumors regarding sales are just that.
Overall, the truth is a lot different than the bitching you see here and elsewhere. There are just some "bad apples" that are unhappy, just like everywhere else.
FACTS:
The schedule is divided into 28 day months. You can work 15-19 days per month, the average is 17, which is guaranteed. You can bid to work more or less, but that's not guaranteed. There is an online bidding interface at the crew website that allows you to pick what your schedule is. If you're senior, and smart enough to know the rules (i.e., max 7 days on, min 3 days off, unless you waive to 2), you can get exactly what you want. There are some 7 day lines, but if you work 7 you get 4 off (waiveable). The normal min is 3 days off. Contrary to a previous post, it is seniority based. There is a lot of whining about this on the company message board. The complaints almost always are because a few pilots didn't understand how to bid. These guys didn't take the time to go to the class to learn the system, of course.
The scheduling system uses projections to know how many pilots are required during a typical day. Then the pilots bid on the demand. This uses crews efficiently, but it also means there are some scheduling restraints. Just like anywhere else. The difference is, ours are smarter.
There were layoffs last year inside the office and on the line, some were outside of seniority. Right or wrong? I don't know, don't know who was canned outside of seniority, maybe they deserved it more than a newhire. Compare a newhire who is happy as heck to have his job and a guy who's a pain in the neck to everybody and the company. I haven't heard of anyone who misses the guys who were canned then. I drop in and talk to my fleet manager every once in a while. He's a nice guy, and does what he can for me, I know. The other guys seem nice too. They're not scary or mean like some people like to imagine. I don't think I'm going to be fired.
Upgrades aren't under a year like they used to be, they've stretched to the 2-year mark. This is because of a poor year in sales last year, and changes in ratios. I hear this is a much better year for sales. I think there will be upgrades this summer/fall.
The complaint about new-hire CL FOs stopping upgrades is a popular misconception, but it doesn't stand up to logic. People used to move from LR Cpt. to CL FO to CL Cpt. Now you can be hired as a CL or LR FO, upgrade into the Lear, and eventually become a CL Cpt. (Not anytime soon) This change has NOT caused a long-term stoppage in FO upgrades, because we haven't added a bunch of CLs to the fleet. Adding CLs will bring Lear Cpts into the fleet, bringing FO upgrades in Lears... Think about that for a while, it will come to you.
There's complaining about hotels. True, we don't stay in as many nice hotels, but we still stay in many hiltons, doubletrees, etc. There are a lot of Holiday Inns nowadays. It's not 5-star luxury, but it's not bad. The guys who complain about losing perks from the CLC direct billing are probably the same ones who complained about having to use their credit card (company-issued, personally guaranteed) to "front" the company money.
I've been on one airline recently (past month or so), I've been flying out of ADS and back to ADS or DAL quite often in the past few months. I haven't been on an airline besides AA or Delta for at least 6 months - that was Southwest, in November I think.
FO pay is a problem, a raise would be nice, or be paid equivalent seniority Cpt. pay when they upgrade instead of starting as a 1st yr. cpt. Anyone with experience in aviation knows things change, this company is not going down the drain, so upgrade times will improve.
Flexjet is doing well overall, they posted a profit for the first time. Probably because they're a business and have to make money. I expect Montreal kind of requires positive financial performance. But Montreal isn't stupid either, they're going to make sure their investment pays off in the long term. Rumors regarding sales are just that.
Overall, the truth is a lot different than the bitching you see here and elsewhere. There are just some "bad apples" that are unhappy, just like everywhere else.
flexlrpilot357
Archbishop of Slack
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2002
- Posts
- 180
One more thing, there was an outright lie in a previous post. there is no such thing as 2 days off, unless you specifically waive for it. I have done so specifically so I could have a particular day off (a wedding), because that was the only way it would work. I got the day off that I wanted.
Semore Butts
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2002
- Posts
- 670
Spoken like a true (I've got mine) Cpt
I would have to assume by the previous post that the person is a Cpt.
Where did you get your math degree bub? If you are hiring F.O's into the right seat of the Challenger, you are blocking the Lear Cpt's from moving into the right seat, and letting an F.O. upgrade into the Lear left seat. Just changing that would be a great morale booster for the pilots.
357 is correct, as time goes on people are learning how to properly use the bid system. But only recently was it changed that allowed you to get at least 4 days off between 7 day rotations. I hope the 2 day off remark wasn't pointed at me because I didn't say that.
357 is also correct in pointing out that there are some restraints, and that the schedule is based on crew demand. The company demand is the first priority, and of course profitabiliy is what keeps us in business, right? Get more work, with less pilots!
357 please re-state your sentence, there are F.O.'s past the 2 and 1/2 year mark with no indication from the company of when any upgrades' will come. I have heard August, but then I heard there would be some "great news in June".
357 is right, the people working in the office are nice people, and the pilots are the "salt of the earth". I like Flex alot, and am agonizing over having to go find another job. People who are hired in now know that the upgrade time has been lengthened to several years. When I hired in we were told 2000 pilots by 2004. The guys we are hiring now are to replace the pilots leaving. It is very common knowledge that the managements attitude is, "If you don't like it leave", to qoute one of the supervisors. That's all I'll say about that.
357 is correct in my opinion, the guys that are bitching about the CLC, are probably the guys that were bitchin about putting it on their credit card. I was not one of them. They pictured it to be like they were "real live airline pilots" where they would walk in and grab a key and go. That's not the case.
So let me end by saying that if you go in knowing that you will not be upgraded for a few years, that bottom line profit for the company and not quality of life for you is item one, that you have no protection from being terminated at any time, then you will be fine. There are of course many other issues. I know 357 thinks I'm a whining "bad apple". So be it, If I were making Cpt pay, I would probably be saying the same thing he is.
The coming of the Continental will be an exciting time for Flex in the near (we hope) future. How they are gonna staff it, and what the pay will be is a whole other can of worms to be open at a later date. Will the Union be voted in? That's yet to be seen. That puts us in a "catch 22" as well. If company was going to "throw us a bone", it wouldn't be wise until after the union vote fails, or whenever they are bargaining for the first contract.
Again, lot's of good people at Flex. Lots of change going on. It will be an interesting next few years.
357, I hope we can have a beer some time. I consider myself a professional, and I consider you one as well. I'm glad we can have different opinions, and speak our minds here. There are different views for every situation. Take care.
I would have to assume by the previous post that the person is a Cpt.
Where did you get your math degree bub? If you are hiring F.O's into the right seat of the Challenger, you are blocking the Lear Cpt's from moving into the right seat, and letting an F.O. upgrade into the Lear left seat. Just changing that would be a great morale booster for the pilots.
357 is correct, as time goes on people are learning how to properly use the bid system. But only recently was it changed that allowed you to get at least 4 days off between 7 day rotations. I hope the 2 day off remark wasn't pointed at me because I didn't say that.
357 is also correct in pointing out that there are some restraints, and that the schedule is based on crew demand. The company demand is the first priority, and of course profitabiliy is what keeps us in business, right? Get more work, with less pilots!
357 please re-state your sentence, there are F.O.'s past the 2 and 1/2 year mark with no indication from the company of when any upgrades' will come. I have heard August, but then I heard there would be some "great news in June".
357 is right, the people working in the office are nice people, and the pilots are the "salt of the earth". I like Flex alot, and am agonizing over having to go find another job. People who are hired in now know that the upgrade time has been lengthened to several years. When I hired in we were told 2000 pilots by 2004. The guys we are hiring now are to replace the pilots leaving. It is very common knowledge that the managements attitude is, "If you don't like it leave", to qoute one of the supervisors. That's all I'll say about that.
357 is correct in my opinion, the guys that are bitching about the CLC, are probably the guys that were bitchin about putting it on their credit card. I was not one of them. They pictured it to be like they were "real live airline pilots" where they would walk in and grab a key and go. That's not the case.
So let me end by saying that if you go in knowing that you will not be upgraded for a few years, that bottom line profit for the company and not quality of life for you is item one, that you have no protection from being terminated at any time, then you will be fine. There are of course many other issues. I know 357 thinks I'm a whining "bad apple". So be it, If I were making Cpt pay, I would probably be saying the same thing he is.
The coming of the Continental will be an exciting time for Flex in the near (we hope) future. How they are gonna staff it, and what the pay will be is a whole other can of worms to be open at a later date. Will the Union be voted in? That's yet to be seen. That puts us in a "catch 22" as well. If company was going to "throw us a bone", it wouldn't be wise until after the union vote fails, or whenever they are bargaining for the first contract.
Again, lot's of good people at Flex. Lots of change going on. It will be an interesting next few years.
357, I hope we can have a beer some time. I consider myself a professional, and I consider you one as well. I'm glad we can have different opinions, and speak our minds here. There are different views for every situation. Take care.
flexlrpilot357
Archbishop of Slack
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2002
- Posts
- 180
Semore, maybe we HAVE had a beer together before!
Regarding the CL thing:
In the "old days", we'd get a CL, some CL FOs would upgrade, some Lear Captains would move into the right seat of the CL, and some Lear FOs would upgrade in a Learjet.
Say we get a new Challenger now. What happens next? Lear Captains move into the Left seat of the CL. We hire FO's for it, or even move some FOs from other fleets if those ratios need to be adjusted, right? Then some FOs are upgraded to fill the Lear Captain seats that were emptied.
What's the difference? There was a difference for a while, as the Senior CL FOs upgraded in their ship, and new FOs began to populate the airplane, but now there isn't a difference I can think of. It drives the same number of upgrades.
Regarding the CL thing:
In the "old days", we'd get a CL, some CL FOs would upgrade, some Lear Captains would move into the right seat of the CL, and some Lear FOs would upgrade in a Learjet.
Say we get a new Challenger now. What happens next? Lear Captains move into the Left seat of the CL. We hire FO's for it, or even move some FOs from other fleets if those ratios need to be adjusted, right? Then some FOs are upgraded to fill the Lear Captain seats that were emptied.
What's the difference? There was a difference for a while, as the Senior CL FOs upgraded in their ship, and new FOs began to populate the airplane, but now there isn't a difference I can think of. It drives the same number of upgrades.
flexlrpilot357
Archbishop of Slack
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2002
- Posts
- 180
Semore Butts
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2002
- Posts
- 670
Ass man, you bet!!!! Why not?
I still don't agree with you man.
If 4 Challenger F.O.s leave, and they hire 4 more CL F.O.'s, there is no movement among the Lear Cpt's.
If 4 CL F.O.'s leave and they put in 4 Lear Cpt's, then that leaves 4 Lear Cpt positions, result movement, and upgrade.
I have recently heard that actual rumor, about going back to the old way. I would sure like to see that happen.
Thanks for respecting my opinion 357.
Now, whoever it was that pasted my post over to the union site;
Bad Dog!!!!! BBAAAAADDDD DDDDOOOGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That gives the impresssion that I'm pro-union.
That is a personal decision that we as pilots are going to have to make should a vote occur.
It's gonna be hard on us all, no matter which way it goes.
Just remember, the whole idea was originally to do this because we love it so much. Lets' no lose sight of that.
I still don't agree with you man.
If 4 Challenger F.O.s leave, and they hire 4 more CL F.O.'s, there is no movement among the Lear Cpt's.
If 4 CL F.O.'s leave and they put in 4 Lear Cpt's, then that leaves 4 Lear Cpt positions, result movement, and upgrade.
I have recently heard that actual rumor, about going back to the old way. I would sure like to see that happen.
Thanks for respecting my opinion 357.
Now, whoever it was that pasted my post over to the union site;
Bad Dog!!!!! BBAAAAADDDD DDDDOOOGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That gives the impresssion that I'm pro-union.
That is a personal decision that we as pilots are going to have to make should a vote occur.
It's gonna be hard on us all, no matter which way it goes.
Just remember, the whole idea was originally to do this because we love it so much. Lets' no lose sight of that.
flexlrpilot357
Archbishop of Slack
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2002
- Posts
- 180
R**, you are right, but the career progression wasn't designed around attrition. It was designed around normal fleet growth. I don't think any company designs career paths around attrition like that.
I certainly respect your opinion. You are a professional, and a human being, and you are entitled to your opinion. On the other hand, you'd better be able to logically defend it!
I certainly respect your opinion. You are a professional, and a human being, and you are entitled to your opinion. On the other hand, you'd better be able to logically defend it!
Humblepilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 200
Mins are 2500tt, 500 multi and 500 turbine and they stick to these mins.
As for how long it takes its anyones guess. Did you have anyone walk your resume in? That would help tremendously. It needs to get in the hands of Karen Parr. That will get you ahead of all the others with out a recommendation.
If you have any other questions feel free to post or pm me. I will be glad to help any way I can.
As for how long it takes its anyones guess. Did you have anyone walk your resume in? That would help tremendously. It needs to get in the hands of Karen Parr. That will get you ahead of all the others with out a recommendation.
If you have any other questions feel free to post or pm me. I will be glad to help any way I can.
bayoubandit
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2002
- Posts
- 272
I faxed my resume in and had it walked in twice by a FlexJet pilot. Also a few other Flex pilots I know put in a good word. This was months ago. I have talked to them on the phone 3-4 times following up, I forget by now, and I haven't heard crap. I live 15 minutes from TEB, which they said they liked since they were looking for guys to be based at TEB.
FWIW, the guys I know there don't really like it and most are looking or counting the days until they can get out. My only guess is that since I am a furloughed major guy, they weren't interested or else my connections have bad reputations. Who knows, but I'm still looking. If your furloughed, forget about sticking your nose around TEB looking for a job, they don't like us furloughed types to much.
FWIW, the guys I know there don't really like it and most are looking or counting the days until they can get out. My only guess is that since I am a furloughed major guy, they weren't interested or else my connections have bad reputations. Who knows, but I'm still looking. If your furloughed, forget about sticking your nose around TEB looking for a job, they don't like us furloughed types to much.
I do not know what your problems is. Maybe one of your so called friends didnt do you any favors. I know the last class had three USAirways guys in it. I had a friend from USAirways hired three months ago. I dont know! Just like the rest of this industry, hiring is crazy. The is no rhyme or reason why most of us do not get hired and others do. Look at how many of us airlines overlooked just to take lower qualified individuals. Keep trying and good luck.
As for your other comments. Things are getting better here at Flex and some of our guys are a little narrow minded. I know b/c I used to be one of them. Maybe we will organize and have a bigger voice. However, some pilots wouldnt be happy flying 3 days a month making $200,00 a year and living wherever they wanted. Some just arent happy unless they are complaining. Those that are should give until the beginning of next year. I think they will be very surprised. Every pilot group has the bad apples and rotten apples.
As for your other comments. Things are getting better here at Flex and some of our guys are a little narrow minded. I know b/c I used to be one of them. Maybe we will organize and have a bigger voice. However, some pilots wouldnt be happy flying 3 days a month making $200,00 a year and living wherever they wanted. Some just arent happy unless they are complaining. Those that are should give until the beginning of next year. I think they will be very surprised. Every pilot group has the bad apples and rotten apples.
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