Flexjet January meeting

[ArtVandalay]

Well, Mr. Gross put a statement on BB that there WILL be an announcement and a meeting before January 12 (within 30 days from Dec 12), about our new compensation package that will be in effect FEB 1. I've been at flex for a while and if they don't match at least Njets pay or CS pay AND reduce the days to at least 15 a month, I'm out. As I believe, alot of people will leave. There has been alot of talk from management for a long time with no bite. I've heard of people quiting being told by RH to stick it out that things are going to greatly improve. Well, we'll see, supposedly in a few weeks, if anyone had the croutons to stand up to Corporate and go to bat for us. 221 days per year at our pay is insane when you compare it to other fractionals. Here is a comparison of our current pay scale, which you can get on airlinepilotcentral.com. I've just condensed it for easy viewing:

F/O FLEXJET CSHARES NETJETS

YEAR 1 $35,360 $40,000 $39,000
YEAR 2 $38,675 $45,000 $40,950
YEAR 3 $40,885 $50,000 $43,000
YEAR 4 $44,200 $51,250 $45,150
YEAR 5 $45,526 $52,530 $47,410

CAPT

YEAR 1 $56,797 $64,000 $52,500
YEAR 2 $59,670 $66,000 $61,880
YEAR 3 $62,101 $72,000 $71,250
YEAR 4 $69,836 $81,000 $80,630
YEAR 5 $72,046 $91,000 $90,000

 

[dime line]

You forgot Flight Options crappy crap for a payscale

FLIGHTOPTIONS
FO:
Year 1 $33,996
Year 2 $36,000
Year 3 $39,996
Year 4 $45,996
Year 5 $51,996

Capt:
Year 1 51,996
Year 2 54,396
Year 3 56,796
Year 4 63,156
Year 5 66,372

And lets not forget the "slide to poverty", meaning a year 5 copilot moves to Year 1 Capt pay when you upgrade to Capt. Yea it will take about 5 or more years to upgrade.

 

[ArtVandalay]

It was so low I was embarrased to put it in there! Haha. I hear you guys have a meeting in january too??

 

[learflyer]

That's what they say......However it is just another delay tactic. In Jan, they will say expect something in March, in March expect something in June, etc, etc. They claim we can't afford it.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

One thing to note here, from a strictly outsiders point of view (I'm a flex guy) is that it look slike CS is really putting a lot of thought behind the idea of FO retention. For any CS guys out there do you feel this is true not just in pay but also in managerial attitude? Is it more reflective of the fact that upgrades are slowing down and they realize attrition and training is more expensive than a higher payscale? What's the skinny?

I believe upgrades at flex are happening much more rapidly now than previously forcasted (espcecially on the reduced schedule proposal). The total lack of respect though has made me want to go regardless UNLESS there is a successful union drive. I turned down two jobs recently (they both had Jan 1 start dates and were lateral moves so don't think I'm too stupid) so I can hang around for the union drive. If flex unionizes, I will stay, if not I will go May 1 -- right after the bonus check. Hey I didn't work my a$$ off for nothing last year... I hear a lot of people are thinking my way. Vishnu help RH on May 1...

 

[Peter_Griffin]

That's what they say......However it is just another delay tactic. In Jan, they will say expect something in March, in March expect something in June, etc, etc. They claim we can't afford it.http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/icons/icon21.gif

One issue no one wants to talk about is the fact that Bomabardier is hiding 2-3 million EXTRA profit on FJ plane sales PLUS the profit they garner from the sale to begin with. In other words, when Bombardier sells a plane to FJ owners it is at full sticker price, if they sell it directly to XYZ company, the price is 2 or 3 mil lower. Management is trying some sneaky tactics in there disclosure about all this.

As an operations company, we do not post any plane sales profit to our books, we simply post the red and black of our operating costs versus our management fees. So yeah, this year we posted a small profit -- the only fractional that was able to run our operation solely on what contract fees we brought in. That is a great accomplishment, but the profit is small. So management tells us there is not enough room to pay for raises, reduced schedules etc without going into the red again. True enough.

But if we posted the just extra profit of say just 2 mil per plane, the is room and then some. If one wants to really assess the facts, we must look all the facts, all the books. Yet is is obvious they think we are not smart enough to figure out their ruse.

Bombardier will never sell us off as long as they can make more selling planes to FJ owners versus NJ or FLOPS. If NJA starts offering premium on lears then we ought to worry, but until then it ain't gonna happen. A small portion of that extra premuim is a small price to pay -- we'll see if we get it.

If I am wrong about this, please tell me -- I don't want to be stirring up a hornets nest over untruths. But this is how some very smart people explained it to me and I have no reason to doubt their input. And the fact that FJ managment won't clear up this matter even though they've been asked, is more telling than not.

 

[miles otoole]

One issue no one wants to talk about is the fact that Bomabardier is hiding 2-3 million EXTRA profit on FJ plane sales PLUS the profit they garner from the sale to begin with. In other words, when Bombardier sells a plane to FJ owners it is at full sticker price, if they sell it directly to XYZ company, the price is 2 or 3 mil lower. Management is trying some sneaky tactics in there disclosure about all this.

As an operations company, we do not post any plane sales profit to our books, we simply post the red and black of our operating costs versus our management fees. So yeah, this year we posted a small profit -- the only fractional that was able to run our operation solely on what contract fees we brought in. That is a great accomplishment, but the profit is small. So management tells us there is not enough room to pay for raises, reduced schedules etc without going into the red again. True enough.

But if we posted the just extra profit of say just 2 mil per plane, the is room and then some. If one wants to really assess the facts, we must look all the facts, all the books. Yet is is obvious they think we are not smart enough to figure out their ruse.

Bombardier will never sell us off as long as they can make more selling planes to FJ owners versus NJ or FLOPS. If NJA starts offering premium on lears then we ought to worry, but until then it ain't gonna happen. A small portion of that extra premuim is a small price to pay -- we'll see if we get it.

If I am wrong about this, please tell me -- I don't want to be stirring up a hornets nest over untruths. But this is how some very smart people explained it to me and I have no reason to doubt their input. And the fact that FJ managment won't clear up this matter even though they've been asked, is more telling than not.

I doubt Bombardier whole aircraft, or Gulfstream for that matter, is discounting the C300 (or G450/550) much, if any. With a 2 year order backlog, it seems the aircraft sells itself. Plus, I'd bet flex jet would give a discount if someone bought half or an entire plane. Monthly fees pay for crew, training, hangaring, etc. What pays for all the hundreds or thousands of people in the support staff in various office buildings around the country? rooting around their website, I see they don't have positiong fees to europe, hawaii, or the caribbean. This must operationally cost a ton as positioning a lear from miami to aruba empty has got to hurt. Both ways. Or a CL to Hawaii or Europe, empty, both ways. What about all the shares repurchased at different times? What happens with all of them? They must be on someone's books-no? Who pays the maintenance/insurance on these shares owned by the fractional company? Where does the advertising money for ads in the WSJ come from? Can't be cheap? What about the NetJet mile sponsorship or free flying that Don Imus does?
It's an interesting business model-I learned much of these dynamics from www.fractionalinsider.com

 

[netjetwife]

I don't doubt that the other Frac companies tell their pilots that they can't afford to pay fairly, while they shuffle the money around in a classic shell game. Two more classics they excel at--foot-dragging and broken promises. If they're so comfortable with the salaries they pay the pilots, why don't they share management salaries as a comparison? That's a list they don't dare show! The FO wages are deplorable at all the Frac companies, and the Captain salaries are insulting at others. I didn't blame those NJ pilots who voted NO for doing so. IMO, only the probationary year can justify the low pay and even that shouldn't be below 40K. The jumps should be bigger after that and quicker.

None of the Fracs pay the FOs fairly! NJ pilots were too far behind (blame it on management foot-dragging and prior weak leadership in the union) to catch up completely this time. Many see the contract as a stepping stone in an on-going struggle to get all of the pilots fair wages. Looking at the pay list makes me angry for all of you that are being underpaid. Your best chance of changing the situation is to band together and stand up for what you're worth. The more of you that will do that --across the industry--the greater your chance of success.
Good luck to all of you!
NJW

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS AND SHOULD BE PAID AS SUCH

A RISING TIDE SHOULD LIFT ALL BOATS--BUT PADDLING IS REQUIRED

 

[Sky Pirate]

We have all been arguing on this web board how this company treats their pilots unfairly and how that one has a bad business plan and we as pilots are never getting paid what we deserve. I agree with a lot of these statements but at the same time we are blaming the wrong people. We as pilots are only worth what we negotiate. I use to work for Flex and at the time I was in a position where I could only negotiate so much, but after a certain amount of time I was offered a better position for better pay and I didn’t take the offer at first because I wanted to see how far this other company would offer. And when I was satisfied I put in my two weeks. Those at Flex or FLOPS all have the option of going out and negotiate a better life for themselves. Those that come up with some excuse and complain on how the company is screwing are scared and expect others to negotiate a better life for them. Yeah cause that’s gonna happen. This situation is not unique to the aviation industry.
If you want the situation to change at both FLOPS and Flex then don’t take the job. Go to the interview, make them want to hire you and then when they offer you a position, reject their offer and say that their compensation package is not competitive with the rest of the industry and when they say that “things are going to change for the better in the near future”, tell them “ok, give me a call when that happens”, and walk out. When both companies don’t have the manpower to operate the company then the owners, who have all the money, get pissed and take their business somewhere else. Management then will decide to offer something more competitive because they want the company to survive because they still want a job. Both companies can afford competitive salaries because rich people will always want their toys no matter the cost.
So those of you who come on this forum and are looking for advice, here is the best advice one could give. Negotiate what your worth. We all know what the pay scales are, so don’t act surprise when you take the job and find out a year from now that you could be making more. Demand more by not taking the job. Netjets and Citation shares are both hiring and offer better packages. Aim for those if you are thinking about getting into the fractional industry. But still do the interviews with Flex or FLOPS and reject them, because that is the only way that they will learn.

 

[ArtVandalay]

That's all good but, you would never have a job by your theory.

 

[hammer2]

Everybody chill. We're going to get at least 1 more day a bid period off. Isn't that better than nothing. Managment is busting thier buns to give us at least a little something. We don't want the company to bleed red. Just remember a quick fix will be a small gain, give it a little more time and we will be the best compensated in the industry. I know everybody has missed me but I'm working so much overtime, its the best way I know to help me and help flex being we are so short handed and all. GO FLEXJET!

 

[hammer2]

one more thing. This is the word fore the day. VOTE!

 

[hydrarkt]

Everybody chill. We're going to get at least 1 more day a bid period off. Isn't that better than nothing. Managment is busting thier buns to give us at least a little something. We don't want the company to bleed red. Just remember a quick fix will be a small gain, give it a little more time and we will be the best compensated in the industry. I know everybody has missed me but I'm working so much overtime, its the best way I know to help me and help flex being we are so short handed and all. GO FLEXJET!

Ah, we had this exact same crap at NJA before our CBA. Of course, it went on for 4 years. Management is busting their buns to get you a little something??? Yeah, I'm sure that's the case. It's more probable that your managment is busting their buns on more ways to keep you hanging by a thread for as long as possible.

 

[ArtVandalay]

Oh you have to understand Hammer. He's never satisfied until he has a mouthful of sausage. He's a poser anyway.

 

[netjetwife]

Sky Pirate, I like your advice for those who are in the job market--vote with your feet. It can affect change, albeit, slowly. That said, what about the pilots that are already employed by companies that undervalue their contribution? That have refused to make good on those promises...we'll take care of you soon...hang in there.....work with us and then.....

What happens when that day doesn't arrive? Why should pilots who have invested time in a company, made friendships there, and have settled their families, have to "vote with their feet"? One voice at a time raised in protest--turning down the job---is far too easy for these companies to ignore. For too many management teams it takes a loud chorus of strong voices in unison demanding... show me the money....treat me with respect...give credit where credit is due. After endless periods of broken promises and continued foot-dragging on addressing legitimate complaints, pilots have the right to stand together and call "Time's up!"

Labor unrest and bad morale have negative consequences for all involved. Why continue to prolong the situation? If the companies respected the pilots, their work rules would reflect that. If their skills were valued, their paychecks would show that. True, you get what you negotiate, but who has the best chance of getting it---the lone pilot or a strong union?

Recognizing there's strength in numbers,
Netjetwife

 

[Turbinehead]

Hey, ah, er Netjetwife.???

Sky Pirate, I like your advice for those who are in the job market--vote with your feet. It can affect change, albeit, slowly. That said, what about the pilots that are already employed by companies that undervalue their contribution? That have refused to make good on those promises...we'll take care of you soon...hang in there.....work with us and then.....

What happens when that day doesn't arrive? Why should pilots who have invested time in a company, made friendships there, and have settled their families, have to "vote with their feet"? One voice at a time raised in protest--turning down the job---is far too easy for these companies to ignore. For too many management teams it takes a loud chorus of strong voices in unison demanding... show me the money....treat me with respect...give credit where credit is due. After endless periods of broken promises and continued foot-dragging on addressing legitimate complaints, pilots have the right to stand together and call "Time's up!"

Labor unrest and bad morale have negative consequences for all involved. Why continue to prolong the situation? If the companies respected the pilots, their work rules would reflect that. If their skills were valued, their paychecks would show that. True, you get what you negotiate, but who has the best chance of getting it---the lone pilot or a strong union?

Recognizing there's strength in numbers,
Netjetwife

Hey, ya, Netjetwife. Did ya happen to see that little blockbuster movie there a couple of years back. It was called, THE TITANIC?

Yea, theres strentgh in numbers alright...in MOST circumstances.

 

[netjetwife]

A very good example of many paying for the mistakes of a few. If you are seeking to draw a parallel between their situation and that of frac pilots, I concur. Mismanagement was clearly to blame!

 

[Turbinehead]

Yea, thats it.

A very good example of many paying for the mistakes of a few. If you are seeking to draw a parallel between their situation and that of frac pilots, I concur. Mismanagement was clearly to blame!

Rising tide raises all boats, and all floatsam too.

Yea, but who was steering that boat? Union workforce or managemt? Who was looking out for the iceberg.

Icebaahhhg. Deeeaaad aheeeeaad!!!

 

[hammer2]

Oh you have to understand Hammer. He's never satisfied until he has a mouthful of sausage. He's a poser anyway.

You probably got to sleep in because I was trip trollin.

 

[netjetwife]

It was pressure from above that was responsible for the Titanic pushing ahead in dangerous conditions. The owners were out for glory--setting a record--safety wasn't a major concern. It was also their decision to provide far fewer life boats than was needed. Clearly, the loss of lives cannot be blamed on those that worked on the ship. According to your way of thinking, the pilots will be to blame if the card venture causes problems. Pilots have to be accountable for what happens in the cockpit. It's not asking too much for management to exercise responsibility in setting the policies that affect all involved.