FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[FR8DOG777]

Yes yes let's get rid of the union and watch our wages immediately skyrocket. While we're at it lets get rid of that dastardly subcommittee called professional standards so you can go back to firing guys with your single engine raw data approach in the 45! You have much to learn about tricky-Ricky-used cars

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I'm not in a battle against management

I'm in a battle against people that want to make pocket full's o'money on the back of my hard work. People that want to turn this once glorious industry of aviation into the Walmart greeter of job that's it working it's way towards because people will let the scumbags at the top take them without any lube.

One thing I am still trying to figure out.

You claim that management has treated you all so poorly that the only thing you can do is get the IBT to protect you.

Explain to me the FO crews who I run into on the road that have experienced all of the same stuff as you and want nothing to do with the IBT, much less a union.

You say we don't understand. What I don't understand is that if things are as bad as you say, why aren't 100% of the FO pilots in favor of the IBT?

If people that have gone through the same thing as you seem to agree with my views, why should we take your word over theirs?

Explain to me the little symbol on your ID that shows that you are a union member. Why don't all of your pilots have that? Any chance you might be willing to disclose the number of pilots that don't have that on their IDs?

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Yes yes let's get rid of the union and watch our wages immediately skyrocket. While we're at it lets get rid of that dastardly subcommittee called professional standards so you can go back to firing guys with your single engine raw data approach in the 45! You have much to learn about tricky-Ricky-used cars

They always say a little bit on knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Why don't you ask your friend here at FJ for the name of one person fired because of that maneuver that we only do in the 45. Oh wait, we do it in all fleets. And I can't think of a single person who has been fired because of that.

Go fish.........

 

[slowtation capt]

Four pilots are suing their employer, Flight Options, LLC, for firing them in retaliation for their union organizing activities. They filed a motion for summary judgment against the company in the Federal District Court in Cleveland, Ohio. The case is Thomas Bowden, et al. vs. Flight Options, LLC, Case No. 02-1768.

Their employer, following the merger of Flight Options and Raytheon Travel Air in March 2002, fired the pilots, Thomas Bowden, William Brunet, Thomas Jeter and William Tumlin. Flight Options is now majority-owned by a Raytheon subsidiary. The pilots were members of the Raytheon Travel Air union organizing committee that attempted to unionize the pilots of RTA with the Teamsters through a campaign that resulted in an election before the National Mediation Board in January 2002.

?These pilots were leaders in the Teamsters union effort at Raytheon Travel Air,? said Don Treichler, Director of the Teamsters Airline Division. ?They are all skilled, veteran pilots. Their professionalism cannot be disputed. Flight Options? reasons for firing them are completely without merit. Discovery in the case has confirmed what we knew ? that these skilled professionals were fired because they supported the union at Travel Air.?

Discovery in the litigation revealed that Flight Options targeted the pilots for firing. An e-mail circulated among its managers in March 2002 shows them scheming to manufacture grounds for terminating the plaintiffs and stating that they needed to change the reasons for firing Bowden because he had not yet attended an indoctrination session at Flight Options headquarters. Bowden was not terminated until late June 2002 and the alleged grounds for discharge did not occur until months after the March 2002 e-mail.

Discovery also uncovered a blacklist of pilots compiled by a Flight Options manager on which the plaintiffs? names were marked. Another Flight Options manager who had been a manager at Travel Air testified that the employer asked Travel Air managers to identify troublemakers among the Travel Air pilots and that the plaintiffs? names were marked on that blacklist.

Evidence shows that former Flight Options CEO Kenn Ricci engaged in a concerted anti-union campaign to defeat the Travel Air union election. The campaign involved intelligence gathered on the Teamster organizing effort; Ricci?s monitoring of pilot Internet communications regarding the union; interrogation by Ricci of pilots about their opinions on the union; and threads by Ricci regarding what would happen if the union were voted in. Ricci admitted in a deposition that his anti-union campaign occupied most of his time following the December 2001 announcement of the merger and leading up to the January 17, 2002 ballot count.

Evidence also shows Ricci made repeated statements that it was legal for him to fire pilots for organizing with a union. An August 2002 e-mail message by Ricci stated that Flight Options had a policy against hiring pilots from unionized carriers.

In March 2002, Ricci threatened the pilot who served as the telephone hotline ?Voice of the Union? during the RTA union election that he should not engage in organizing activity at Flight Options. That pilot left Flight Options to take a position at Teamster-represented NetJets. The evidence revealed clearly that Flight Options knew the plaintiffs were the union activists among the Travel Air pilots and that Flight Options was hostile to union supporters and retaliated against them.

Flight Options asserted unwarranted grounds for the discharge of the pilots. Management was unable to produce a single manager who could testify to the conduct of Jeter and Tumlin that allegedly led to their firing. Flight Options managers contradicted themselves as to the reasons for Brunet and Bowden?s terminations. Two Flight Options managers denied that Brunet engaged in the conduct during an indoctrination session for which he was allegedly fired. Ricci testified that he fired Brunet for ?bad body language,? but never discussed the matter with Brunet.

Flight Options asserted four different stories as to why they fired Bowden ? stories which proved untrue. The Flight Options e-mail targeting Bowden for termination months prior to any of these alleged events shows that the company sought any pretext to fire him.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Four pilots are suing their employer, Flight Options, LLC, for firing them in retaliation for their union organizing activities. They filed a motion for summary judgment against the company in the Federal District Court in Cleveland, Ohio. The case is Thomas Bowden, et al. vs. Flight Options, LLC, Case No. 02-1768.

Their employer, following the merger of Flight Options and Raytheon Travel Air in March 2002, fired the pilots, Thomas Bowden, William Brunet, Thomas Jeter and William Tumlin. Flight Options is now majority-owned by a Raytheon subsidiary. The pilots were members of the Raytheon Travel Air union organizing committee that attempted to unionize the pilots of RTA with the Teamsters through a campaign that resulted in an election before the National Mediation Board in January 2002.

?These pilots were leaders in the Teamsters union effort at Raytheon Travel Air,? said Don Treichler, Director of the Teamsters Airline Division. ?They are all skilled, veteran pilots. Their professionalism cannot be disputed. Flight Options? reasons for firing them are completely without merit. Discovery in the case has confirmed what we knew ? that these skilled professionals were fired because they supported the union at Travel Air.?

Discovery in the litigation revealed that Flight Options targeted the pilots for firing. An e-mail circulated among its managers in March 2002 shows them scheming to manufacture grounds for terminating the plaintiffs and stating that they needed to change the reasons for firing Bowden because he had not yet attended an indoctrination session at Flight Options headquarters. Bowden was not terminated until late June 2002 and the alleged grounds for discharge did not occur until months after the March 2002 e-mail.

Discovery also uncovered a blacklist of pilots compiled by a Flight Options manager on which the plaintiffs? names were marked. Another Flight Options manager who had been a manager at Travel Air testified that the employer asked Travel Air managers to identify troublemakers among the Travel Air pilots and that the plaintiffs? names were marked on that blacklist.

Evidence shows that former Flight Options CEO Kenn Ricci engaged in a concerted anti-union campaign to defeat the Travel Air union election. The campaign involved intelligence gathered on the Teamster organizing effort; Ricci?s monitoring of pilot Internet communications regarding the union; interrogation by Ricci of pilots about their opinions on the union; and threads by Ricci regarding what would happen if the union were voted in. Ricci admitted in a deposition that his anti-union campaign occupied most of his time following the December 2001 announcement of the merger and leading up to the January 17, 2002 ballot count.

Evidence also shows Ricci made repeated statements that it was legal for him to fire pilots for organizing with a union. An August 2002 e-mail message by Ricci stated that Flight Options had a policy against hiring pilots from unionized carriers.

In March 2002, Ricci threatened the pilot who served as the telephone hotline ?Voice of the Union? during the RTA union election that he should not engage in organizing activity at Flight Options. That pilot left Flight Options to take a position at Teamster-represented NetJets. The evidence revealed clearly that Flight Options knew the plaintiffs were the union activists among the Travel Air pilots and that Flight Options was hostile to union supporters and retaliated against them.

Flight Options asserted unwarranted grounds for the discharge of the pilots. Management was unable to produce a single manager who could testify to the conduct of Jeter and Tumlin that allegedly led to their firing. Flight Options managers contradicted themselves as to the reasons for Brunet and Bowden?s terminations. Two Flight Options managers denied that Brunet engaged in the conduct during an indoctrination session for which he was allegedly fired. Ricci testified that he fired Brunet for ?bad body language,? but never discussed the matter with Brunet.

Flight Options asserted four different stories as to why they fired Bowden ? stories which proved untrue. The Flight Options e-mail targeting Bowden for termination months prior to any of these alleged events shows that the company sought any pretext to fire him.

Source? Not that I don't take you at your word of course.

 

[slowtation capt]

Source? Not that I don't take you at your word of course.

The internet. Any FO pilot knows all about this
A quick search and this was easily found

What used to be available that I am having a hard time finding right now is the actual documents.
It seems that most court documents for any lawsuits out there have been moved to a system called PACER. It requires access.

The court documents, along with the dispositions, were all available online.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

The internet. Any FO pilot knows all about this
A quick search and this was easily found

What used to be available that I am having a hard time finding right now is the actual documents.
It seems that most court documents for any lawsuits out there have been moved to a system called PACER. It requires access.

The court documents, along with the dispositions, were all available online.

Are you going to try to answer any if my questions as to what % of FO pilots are members of the IBT.

Also, if things were/are so bad there, why do so many of your pilots hate the IBT? It doesn't seem like they are totally against unions, just the IBT.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I can't believe that you guy's believe that the Union would not allow us on Yammer. Kenn Ricci, Joe Salata, Chris Herzberg, etc never hesitated to email us, I have all the emails to prove it, now all of a sudden DW can't.
That is about one of the worst lie's that I have ever heard.
I'm not going to get into anymore, but if you guy's believe that then......

The ass kissing that I hear, that is going on, on Yammer, I'm glad I'm not on that love fest, I would probably just throw up in my mouth reading that garbage.

Actually I did just throw up in my mouth.

I bet if your god like DW told you guys to all get in a circle and ....... off each other, that all you followers would jump for the first chance to do it. Will she give you the special flavored kool-aid to drink after, also.

I hope to one day meet a flex pilot that actually thinks for himself.

I assure you that there's no mass lovefest going on on Yammer. Some, yes. Mass, no. We regularly debate the powers-that-be that sometimes it starts to get a little too personal towards one another.

As far as meeting a Flexjet pilot that can think for himself, you're talking to one now and many others on here that you trash daily. We have to think for ourselves, hence no IBT. Self thinkers need no spokesmen. Drones need a union.

 

[Club ORD FO]

For the fence-sitters at Flex?I would recommend just talking with as many Flops line pilots as you can when out on the line. They work under the IBT and is where you will get the most honest answers. I?ve spoken to at least a dozen of the pilots since our acquisition, including sharing beverages with a crew last week , and have yet to meet ONE who is solidly pro-IBT(most folks simply don?t like the IBT or it?s leaders). This crew spoke of the ?incidents? and other BS that the union goobers blow up out of proportion to incite unrest and create uncertainty in fellow pilots and, hopefully, create support for a union?classic union tactics.
WL

My experience has been the same. Did they give you an indication of if their disappointment with the IBT is enough that they would vote them out? In other words what is worse, no union under KR or union under IBT? The guys I asked, even though they were not happy with their local leadership, were thrilled about the idea of going back to no no union.

 

[Club ORD FO]

That post about being being unjustly fired is a reason why I won't apply at options anytime soon. Our management at flex is different. Sure they might all be replaced, but until that happens I'm not worried about our management suddenly starting to can people they don't like. I don't care if KR is the head honcho, that's not enough suddenly change how we've handled human resources.

So once again, you're asking us to unionized based on the threat/fear/assumption that things will get bad on our side just because KR is in charge. I'm not so sure about that. At least not while our current management is in place. And if KR let's us stay separate forever, then great. You guys unionized because things WERE bad, not because you had it good but were worried they MIGHT get bad. Surely you can see it from our point of view? Why not just wait for things to get bad, then you can say I told you so, and you'll get a lot more votes

 

[slowtation capt]

Are you going to try to answer any if my questions as to what % of FO pilots are members of the IBT.

Since I am not a member of the MEC, I don't have those #'s.
I won't try to answer it, I couldn't guess either. There's pilots that I have never met, never even heard their names, etc....
From my experience 70% of the pilots that I personally fly with have the horses.

Also, if things were/are so bad there, why do so many of your pilots hate the IBT? It doesn't seem like they are totally against unions, just the IBT.

Because it's the IBT. There is always that stigma that will follow the IBT
The thing though is; and you said it.

It doesn't seem like they are totally against unions, just the IBT.

If you can find a Union that would suit us better, and will represent us, let us know, but my guess is, you won't find it.

 

[slowtation capt]

That post about being being unjustly fired is a reason why I won't apply at options anytime soon.

There's no need to apply, KR bought you.

 

[FR8DOG777]

Club you are asking questions and trying to become informed, which is admirable. By your analogy basically you are saying we want to ride the coat tails of the progress that the union at netjets has made. Or maybe you get hired at delta, United, or American tomorrow and enjoy the contractual benefits that have been hard fought for and won for year, after year, after year. Do not discount our 16 years of experience with RICCI. Had it not been for Raytheon, flops would have faced the same fate of avantair by 2003. RICCI took all the money and invested it into his infrastructure, sold bad contracts to gain market share, and defaulted on his loan to Raytheon. That is indisputable. So now we, flight options pilots go into survival mode and circle the wagons and unionize. We are sold a bunch of lies and rebuild this company from the ground up, including ********************ty wages and degraded life on the road. OK great we screwed up and now all boats must rise with the incoming tide right? Except they don't want to share the fruits of our labors. I am tired of this argument. RICCI will never pay us. I say we call the vote tomorrow and move on with life!

 

[slowtation capt]

that's not enough suddenly change how we've handled human resources.

Who is the head of human resources now?

If Bob Sullivan is the answer, well Bob Sullivan was a major part of the firing of 4.

Why not just wait for things to get bad, then you can say I told you so, and you'll get a lot more votes

Because I've been down that road, it's a 6 yr. process from when you get feed up with it being bad till you have something worth voting on.

I've invested my time into it all ready, and I don't want to waste the investment I put into it.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Nothing can stop KR from doing things RIGHT THIS MINUTE to make things better from Flops (pay, 401K, etc)

KR didn't hesitate to give us a meal plan the minute he bought the company, we didn't have a contract yet, but we had the Union.

I always heard from KR that he wanted Flops pilots to be the hightest paid. Well.............

During negotiations, the raise he wanted to give us, was to bring back the SFO program.
Granted, times were bad back when we voted yes for the contract.
However things have improved, couldn't KR give us a raise mid contract? How about the 401K,
YES, he can.

 

[The Architect]

DW Lied

She actually said the union would not allow direct communications between management and FO pilots on Yammer.

The union did NOT say "it would not allow direct communications between management and FO pilots on Yammer."

If she said that, SHE LIED.

Carefully read the communications. The union specifically requested access for the Flight Options pilot. Management "DENIED" the access.

DW's reference on Yammer is a matter of fait accompli. The union asked for access to the only employee group omitted by OneSky from Yammer, the Flight Options pilots. The request did not mention anything with regard to "terms and conditions of employment." The union was denied. The union asked again, emphasizing that it found the forum acceptable since "terms and conditions of employment" would be management-representative discussions. DENIED AGAIN.

Let's get this right and put it to rest.

It's OneSky's Yammer. They control it. ACCESS DENIED!

If you want to use a forum to communicate with Flight Options pilot and the union, go to their message board. ACCESS PERMITTED!