FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[BlueNose]

Hey it's what was negotiated in the depths of the recession. But at least it's audited by the union quarterly. Would you prefer the alternative, with everything else that goes along with it?

I seem to recall from the communications at the time that the low wages were necessary due to the recession, with the revenue sharing plan being a future compensator as conditions (and hence revenues) would improve with the economy. That at least was a credible argument.


We all know we'll never see a dime of revenue sharing, and that was the intent all along. It's evident that KR and co devised a numbers scheme that would never pay out, no matter how well the economy recovers. The only question remaining, was 1108 fooled, or did they see KR's intent even then, and go along to have something to help sell the contract? I've heard arguments both ways, but will give the benefit of the doubt on this one. A lot of smart people have been snookered by KR over the years (FO's original investors, Raytheon, DAC's present investors come to mind), no harm in admitting if that's what happened. Better to admit it as a cautionary tale, than to defend the program and blame it on the "depths of the recession." That contradicts what was previously said as well as everyone's common sense, don't you think?

 

[el raton]

Logic 101

The burden of proof lies with the person or persons who are making the claim, and is not upon anyone else to disprove. The inability, to disprove a claim does not render that claim valid.

Example: You can't prove that space aliens don't exist, so they must be out there.

I don't see the financials, but the proof may be in my last two bonuses, the recall of our furloughed pilots (and some of yours), record sales, and no pay cuts...(and we're paid ~30% more than you). These are some indications that at a minimum there are no losses. That is also based on how lean Flex runs operations.




You're selling just fear and that's not enough to convince anyone at flex.

 

[Praetorian]

I seem to recall from the communications at the time that the low wages were necessary due to the recession, with the revenue sharing plan being a future compensator as conditions (and hence revenues) would improve with the economy. That at least was a credible argument.


We all know we'll never see a dime of revenue sharing, and that was the intent all along. It's evident that KR and co devised a numbers scheme that would never pay out, no matter how well the economy recovers. The only question remaining, was 1108 fooled, or did they see KR's intent even then, and go along to have something to help sell the contract? I've heard arguments both ways, but will give the benefit of the doubt on this one. A lot of smart people have been snookered by KR over the years (FO's original investors, Raytheon, DAC's present investors come to mind), no harm in admitting if that's what happened. Better to admit it as a cautionary tale, than to defend the program and blame it on the "depths of the recession." That contradicts what was previously said as well as everyone's common sense, don't you think?

Ok, that's an easy one. If we are looking it that way, it is a cautionary tale. I doubt the pilots will ever agree to a supplimental pay sceme, like the one in our current CBA again. I also doubt the after the recent games that have been played by senior management, "metering sales", intentionally slowing growth and refusing to recall, that the unions leadership will ever again persue a simmilar supplemental pay system.

 

[Praetorian]

I don't see the financials, but the proof may be in my last two bonuses, the recall of our furloughed pilots (and some of yours), record sales, and no pay cuts...(and we're paid ~30% more than you). These are some indications that at a minimum there are no losses. That is also based on how lean Flex runs operations.




You're selling just fear and that's not enough to convince anyone at flex.

Wow, maybe your bonuses should have been higher? But you really don't know. Do you?

Maybe if you're really good boys and girls, next year uncle Kenn will buy you a pony.

 

[el raton]

Maybe your bonuses should have been higher? But you really don't know. Do you?

Maybe if your really good boys and girls, next year uncle Kenn will buy you a pony.

Your sarcasm and insulting tone is noted. You know the teamsters are on their way out. You should start finding a way to cope with the changes that are coming.

 

[jetwash]

Your sarcasm and insulting tone is noted. You know the teamsters are on their way out. You should start finding a way to cope with the changes that are coming.

Look at what Ricci paid pilots before the union came on property and you should start finding a way to cope with the changes that are coming.



Time will tell who is right.

 

[Seahawk]

Look at what Ricci paid pilots before the union came on property and you should start finding a way to cope with the changes that are coming.



Nah, another reason why we will remain seperate, "We dont want to share in your financial and labor pain!" You have an opportunity to really grow Flight Options but you insist on keeping your union with a dead horse. Good luck with that!

 

[Praetorian]

Your sarcasm and insulting tone is noted. You know the teamsters are on their way out. You should start finding a way to cope with the changes that are coming.

Come on, it was a joke. Sorry if I offended you.

What should insult you is the people who are trying to convince you to maintain the current relationship you have with management, which after all is what makes my little quip possible.

 

[V1 Rotate]

You guys at FLOPs are so beaten up and blinded by the fact that a company, an aviation company at that, could ever be profitable and treat it's employees the way you guys wish you could be treated. I'm not saying it's been perfect, by no means. When I came here from the airlines, I couldn't believe the difference in the mentality and the way I was treated. People seemed to get along. There was a genuine concern for the company and most everyone wanted to see Flexjet succeed and prosper. And still, after all these years, I know of no one who truly wants to see this place burn down. I'm sure there are a few that feel that way and I could probably narrow it down to those few but overall it's not like that.

Only a group of beaten down employees would try to convince the employees of another company who is succeeding that their leadership are a bunch of liars. No matter how many good stories we provide, you're going to find fault. There's no pleasing you all. We just received a 10% bonus, brought back all of our furloughees and then some, but yet we're probably losing money, we were never profitable and our leadership are nothing more than a bunch of liars. Do I have that about right?

 

[el raton]

Come on, it was a joke. Sorry if I offended you.

What should insult you is the people who are trying to convince you to maintain the current relationship you have with management, which after all is what makes my little quip possible.

Sorry, my sarcasm switch is broke.

We owe it to our management because of their past performance to give them a chance. They have some collateral with us...which can be spent quickly.

 

[chainring]

Only a group of beaten down employees would try to convince the employees of another company who is succeeding that their leadership are a bunch of liars. No matter how many good stories we provide, you're going to find fault. There's no pleasing you all. We just received a 10% bonus, brought back all of our furloughees and then some, but yet we're probably losing money, we were never profitable and our leadership are nothing more than a bunch of liars. Do I have that about right?[/QUOTE]

Only reason any of that is because Ricci wants the union gone. Make Flex bigger and Options smaller for the upcoming vote. Were so short staffed it's not funny but no way are they going to bring back any Options furloughees until after the Union vote. Then the fun begins for all you Flex guys. If our contract is so bad then why does Ricci want it gone so bad. Because without it he can do whatever he wants. And he will. I've worked for 2 Ricci companies and there both the same. Minimum work force with maximum work. I flew with a moron last week bragging to me that he flew 12 days in a row. I'm sure our furloughees appreciate that. Only thing keeping me sane right now is the contract and the ability to say no with out recourse when needed. Just finished another fun filled 7 day tour with 44.4 hours in seven days, 4 10 in 24 warnings and 2 fatigue calls. But it sucks. I got in zero workouts this week as just every might was go to the hotel for 10 or 11 hours. And no this isn't the unions fault. It's nasty management team that won't admit we are severely understaffed and too few aircraft . The Flex pilots really should be concerned because it is not Riccis style to run a company with excess resources. I have no idea what the Flex crew ratio is but I'm guessing ours is around 4 pilots per airplane and that includes management pilots and pilots on medical leaves. It's going to be a sad day if the Union is voted off the property as if that happens when you guys realize the mistake it will take 5 to 7 years to ever get representation back. Bombardier is gone pele. Skyjet is going to eventually be run just like very other Ricci company. If you think otherwise your being a fool. Really look at Riccis track record. That's your future. Your past is gone.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Sorry, my sarcasm switch is broke.

We owe it to our management because of their past performance to give them a chance. They have some collateral with us...which can be spent quickly.

I too would like to give management a chance. But it's risky. If the union is voted out and things go bad, then what? It's not like we can just bring a union back.

The longer we can delay the NMB petition the better

 

[chief9404]

I don't see the financials, but the proof may be in my last two bonuses, the recall of our furloughed pilots (and some of yours), record sales, and no pay cuts...(and we're paid ~30% more than you). These are some indications that at a minimum there are no losses. That is also based on how lean Flex runs operations.




You're selling just fear and that's not enough to convince anyone at flex.

I'm puzzled why Bombardier shed that lean money making machine.

 

[slowtation capt]

I don't see the financials, but the proof may be in my last two bonuses, the recall of our furloughed pilots (and some of yours), record sales, and no pay cuts...(and we're paid ~30% more than you). These are some indications that at a minimum there are no losses. That is also based on how lean Flex runs operations.




You're selling just fear and that's not enough to convince anyone at flex.

You guys have gotten pay raises and bonuses, have your office people also been compensated with raises and bonuses?

To let you know how much Ricci thinks of his office people in CGF, that probably truly work the hardest for this company, haven't seen a dime of an increase in over 7 yrs.

 

[dime line]

I'm puzzled why Bombardier shed that lean money making machine.

Taken from Hillary .."At this point what does it matter". Bombardier sold FLEX, that is it. And here we all are, FLEX and FO pilots. Waiting for the 1st and 15th for payday, and working for the man.

 

[jetwash]

Nah, another reason why we will remain seperate, "We dont want to share in your financial and labor pain!" !

You don't want to share in our financial pain? You do realize that we are now both working for the same guy.

Just as you are worried about dropping down to our current pay scale, we are worried about going down even farther to Kenn's pre union pay scale.
The CBA pay scale did afterall bring up my pay over 40% in the last 4 years.

Don't forget, your new owner fought that pay increase and now you think he is going to keep his wallet open for you if the union is voted out.

 

[jonjuan]

You don't want to share in our financial pain? You do realize that we are now both working for the same guy.

Just as you are worried about dropping down to our current pay scale, we are worried about going down even farther to Kenn's pre union pay scale.
The CBA pay scale did afterall bring up my pay over 40% in the last 4 years.

Don't forget, your new owner fought that pay increase and now you think he is going to keep his wallet open for you if the union is voted out.

Jesus man, why do you long timers still work there? I thought us airways pay was bad.

 

[jetwash]

Jesus man, why do you long timers still work there? I thought us airways pay was bad.

Believe it or not, I like the fractional flying, schedule, home baseing and a few other things. I just would like to see a few improvements.

 

[jonjuan]

Believe it or not, I like the fractional flying, schedule, home baseing and a few other things. I just would like to see a few improvements.

Understood. The beat down just sounds unreal. Maybe it's simply complaining.

 

[CL300Pilot]

I'm puzzled why Bombardier shed that lean money making machine.

General pilot feeling......Bombardier was hemorrhaging cash because of all of the delays in the C-Series and the Lear 85 and we were quick cash. Look at the 1700 people Bombardier has furloughed since the beginning of the year. That smells of cash flow issues.

What we were told my managment......Bombardier wanted to get back to its roots of building and selling aircraft and trains and being in the fractional business was not their core business.

My personal guess....a little of both of the above. That being said, I am also glad we are away from Bombardier as I feel they were keeping us from growing. Which way our two companies go is anyones guess. I just hope that we all can get through this relatively unscathed and work together as one. Flexjet has a lot of great pilots as I am sure Options does as well.