FlexJet - Anything New???

[FastJP4]

Seems very quiet with the Flex folks. Anything new going on over there? Base improvements? Rolling rest improvements? 3 a.m. calls from scheduling cease? Health insurance improvements? QOL improvements? Still hot to trot for a union? Or have all of those gone by the wayside with the May daily rate increase?

Just curious - seems like the crickets are noisier than the pilots since the pay increase announcement.

Fast

 

[Inigo Montoya]

nothing has chaged. a lot of promises were made in january and nothing has been done but talk talk talk.

union drive is still going, more cards are being sent in.

 

[netjetwife]

Good Luck to the Flex pilots! Between NJA and CS, there is a definite industry standard and there's no justification for a large discrepancy in pay when frac pilots all do essentially the same job.

 

[Propilot77]

Good Luck to the Flex pilots! Between NJA and CS, there is a definite industry standard and there's no justification for a large discrepancy in pay when frac pilots all do essentially the same job.

Yeah but us Flexjet guys are Back below industry standard because we work 202 days per year for the same money while the other s work 180. Nothing like be number 3 on the totem pole again!

 

[bailey3083]

No,No, No, No, No, No, Kinda

 

[shanes123]

Could be worst!!You could work for FLOPS and be buried under the totem pole

 

[Club ORD FO]

at least you flops guys are working on a contract. If everything works out for you, Flex will become the lowest paid fractional pretty soon.

 

[netjetwife]

Yeah but us Flexjet guys are Back below industry standard because we work 202 days per year for the same money while the other s work 180. Nothing like be number 3 on the totem pole again!

I often use the term "underpaid/overworked" because of situations like yours, Pro. I agree that pilots have to compare the daily rate to see exactly where they stand. If there's a big gap its wrong. QOL is an important issue to professionals gone from home so much. The industry standard is 180 days and that's quite enough as it is. More than that should be voluntary and come with extra pay of course. Otherwise you're underpaid/overworked, especially if the rest of your compensation package is lagging behind, as well. Hopefully, it's not. My sympathy to the Flex pilots and their families for a situation that's frustrating and de-motivating. On second thought, it could motivate pilots to band together and take a stand.

The do more with less method needs to get the boot.

 

[finnjl]

I often use the term "underpaid/overworked" because of situations like yours, Pro. I agree that pilots have to compare the daily rate to see exactly where they stand. If there's a big gap its wrong. QOL is an important issue to professionals gone from home so much. The industry standard is 180 days and that's quite enough as it is. More than that should be voluntary and come with extra pay of course. Otherwise you're underpaid/overworked, especially if the rest of your compensation package is lagging behind, as well. Hopefully, it's not. My sympathy to the Flex pilots and their families for a situation that's frustrating and de-motivating. On second thought, it could motivate pilots to band together and take a stand.

The do more with less method needs to get the boot.

Flex is not really as bad as everyone makes it sound to be. I am not sure sympathy is in order, no one died or anything and and most people are not de-motivated. My family is doing well too. I will make close to 70,000 as a year three FO so we are not on fold stamps and my kids have food to eat. Thank you anyways.

 

[doylehargraves]

You're right, Flexjet is absolutely not a bad place to be. It is right on the brink of being "really good" as opposed to what it is right now, "ok".

I remember an email from DG early this year that he wanted new rest rules by the end of the first quarter this year. Hmm, thats getting close isn't it? No word yet.

If we could get REAL REST RULES and not, "here's $200 for your troubles", this place would be vastly improved. How many times have we all now had 501AM start times now that the $200 "rule" went into effect??

Bottom line is, we need the exact rules that NJ has regarding rest. Will that happen? probably not.

Will the health benefits ever get improved? I hope so. One of the problems with Flexjet is you have to keep your fingers crossed for A LONG TIME.

 

[finnjl]

i agree things can be better and eventually they will improve, I am an optimist

 

[netjetwife]

Finn, I didn't suggest your kids weren't eating just that they should be able to have you with them as much as NJ kids have their pilot-parent at home. I think the benefits should be comparable, too. Fairness mandates that other frac families should have the same security (enjoyed by NJA families) that comes with a contract. All frac pilots should have protections (a process that must be followed) and representation should questions arise. Our frac families' futures are too important to leave to the whim of management. The pilots have too much invested in their career to leave it to chance, just hoping things will work out well for them. Other professionals have a voice in their career destiny, why should pilots be treated like unskilled laborers?!

In today's job market professionals take a contract for granted. Doctors won't see a patient until the paperwork guaranteeing payment has been filled out. Who buys a car or has a house built without a contract to protect their investment? Contracts are all around us these days, and I'm quite sure that the upper management of FlexJet doesn't work without one.

Finn, sympathy along the lines of "that's too bad" isn't as strong as condolences sent to a grieving family; and it's always optional. It's only fair to let the individual pilot or family member decide for his/her self. The PMs I receive (some from readers who don't post) express appreciation so feel free to skip the encouragement if you personally don't need it. The offer remains because I don't want to disappoint those who like encouraging words. Fair warning sympathetic words ahead...

My sympathy (the kind where you shake your head and say that's not right) to the Flex pilots who want the going daily rate for their professional skill and/or a contract that enables their family to count on the present compensation package remaining the same (remember Options pilots had their health care rates jacked way up) while planning their future based on a pay scale agreed to by the company.
Best Wishes,
Netjetwife

 

[Club ORD FO]

Flex is not really as bad as everyone makes it sound to be. I am not sure sympathy is in order, no one died or anything and and most people are not de-motivated. My family is doing well too. I will make close to 70,000 as a year three FO so we are not on fold stamps and my kids have food to eat. Thank you anyways.

70 grand? no way. not a chance. 3rd year FO is like $220 a day. how many days a year you working?

 

[Ludicris]

He is referring to after the May 1 raise.

 

[Club ORD FO]

edit - nevermind

 

[FastJP4]

That's too bad. It seems the pay increase has stopped the bulk of the motivation to strive for something better. QOL issue's remain, and other than Flops - Flex is right back at the bottom of the heap. 5:01 shows to save $200 - doesn't get much crappier than that. An extra 22 days of work and still coming up short of the others. One has to wonder when the Flex pilots themselves will step up to the plate.

Another victory for management. They sure worked the pilot group like a two foot putt.

 

[netjetwife]

Fast, it's posts like yours that elicit my sympathy for Flex pilots. To me, it's a simple matter of fairness and it bothers me to see frac families get a raw deal. I agree with you that there's lots of room for improvement but little chance of it happening in a timely fashion--unless the Flex pilots take the initiative to force management to respond to the pilotgroups' needs. They don't seem to have a problem ignoring you and they certainly don't have your best interests at heart. The pilots are the ones who should represent themselves when decisions are made that affect them and their families. The longer they put you off the more money you're losing out on and the further behind you're falling compared to the majority of frac pilots. That's not right and I feel badly for you and your family. Best Wishes, NJW

 

[FastJP4]

NJW, I agree with most of what you say. Let's keep it in perspective though - it wasn't too long ago that NetJets was one of the dogs in the frac industry. Flex has the best fleet, a 15 billion a year parent company - yet they always come up short in the most important areas.

I had a friend that recently interviewed there. He said one of the few things stressed was that they were non-union, and they want to keep it that way. NetJets is where they are because the pilots got together and stuck together. Flex could be the same way - but they have no unity. They fear loss of job if they are proactive towards the union - one of the very things that screams for a union. Granted, it's a tough road to tow - but if they never walk down that road together - then they will remain on the bottom where they currently find themselves.

 

[Flex-ible]

You know what, guys? I don't want to work for NetJets. That's why I did not APPLY to them, and why I took the job at Flex. I LIKE the fact that it's smaller. I LIKE the fact that it's non-union, which gives the company more flexibility to deal with individual situations (go to the training center and ask GR about that). I LIKE the people I am working with. I do not want us to turn into NetJets. It would take away that which I chose.

 

[netjetwife]

NJW, I agree with most of what you say. Let's keep it in perspective though - it wasn't too long ago that NetJets was one of the dogs in the frac industry. And well I know it! It's the reason I started posting here in the first place. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Flex has the best fleet, a 15 billion a year parent company - Please remind me who the parent company is. yet they always come up short in the most important areas. Inexcusable I think; something that happens on a regular basis seems more deliberate than coincidental.

I had a friend that recently interviewed there. He said one of the few things stressed was that they were non-union, and they want to keep it that way. That is awful; banding together for support is an American right! If Flex management treated their pilots fairly and offered the industry standard in the compensation package and work rules there wouldn't be interest in a Union nearly as much as they seem to think. NetJets is where they are because the pilots got together and stuck together. Absolutely! I have posted that the NJA pilots were apathetic far too long. It took strong leaders and a grass roots movement to wake them up. I don't think they'll ever want to go back to the 284 type of days again. Flex could be the same way - but they have no unity. They fear loss of job if they are proactive towards the union - one of the very things that screams for a union. Exactly! Granted, it's a tough road to tow - but if they never walk down that road together - then they will remain on the bottom where they currently find themselves.

Very well said, Fast! I'll keep my fingers crossed for all of you and your families. NJW

 

[Helmsalee]

Bombardier(sp?) is the parent. They build the Lears and Challengers.

 

[netjetwife]

Ohhh that's right. Thanks for the reminder. Doesn't sound to me like it's a matter of not being able to pay the pilots professional wages. I think the case is more along the lines of won't rather than can't...

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

We don't have any three year FO's, do we?

 

[CL300Pilot]

Doyle and all,

I can tell you that the headshed is in fact working out the duty rest issues. We had a crew land in CA somewhere at around 1600 local. Dispatch told them that they were off duy at 1700 and were in crew rest at 2100. Their trips were the next day start at 0800. If you do the math, they were given 10 hours of uninterupted rest with hard duty assignment the next day.

Another crew had the same senario happen and their trips cancelled. They received the call from dispatch at the 10 hour mark informing them of the cancellation and that they were going to be on airport reserve.

From what I am told from dispatch, they are trying to emulate (sp?) the work rules that NJA currently has. Will it get turned on in the next 12 days? Your guess is as good as anyone elses, but they are working it as we type and read this board.

You're right, Flexjet is absolutely not a bad place to be. It is right on the brink of being "really good" as opposed to what it is right now, "ok".

I remember an email from DG early this year that he wanted new rest rules by the end of the first quarter this year. Hmm, thats getting close isn't it? No word yet.

If we could get REAL REST RULES and not, "here's $200 for your troubles", this place would be vastly improved. How many times have we all now had 501AM start times now that the $200 "rule" went into effect??

.

 

[Club ORD FO]

We don't have any three year FO's, do we?

upgrades have more or less come to a halt, so yeah there are plenty of FOs getting year 3 pay

 

[CL300Pilot]

The last upgrade I believe was hired January 2006. So I don't see any 3 year FO's as of yet. This is from the Feb. seniority list by the way.

upgrades have more or less come to a halt, so yeah there are plenty of FOs getting year 3 pay

 

[doylehargraves]

I hope you're right; however, their right to contact us after 8 hours is a violation of FAA rules. The electronic messages that they say do not interrupt rest, do. These 2 things MUST go away.

When I have a day that they tell me at 12pm, "we don't have anything for you today", and then they call me at 7pm for a position leg, that's rolling rest in my opinion. If you don't have any trips for me today, release me. Don't put me in rest at 5pm that day because, haven't I been in rest?? No one knows. This kind of stuff must go away and fast.

Getting 6 different assignments for my first day all the way until 10pm on my last day off is WRONG. When I get 7 or 8 different messages on my phone for 6 hours on my last day off, ISN'T A DAY OFF.

I will be shocked if they fix these problems. The rumor I keep hearing though is that the FAA is pushing this and not the company. Or, more importantly, pushing the company to do it. Has anyone else heard this?

I truly hope that the company is serious about making positive changes regarding this because it IS a safety issue and not just us whining. Lets see what happens.

 

[CL300Pilot]

I completely agree with your assessment of rolling rest. I just wanted you and others to know that it is in fact being addressed. Is the FAA pushing it? Who knows, but it is at least being addressed. Just one more good thing about the company that is either coming or here.

Fly safe.

CL300Pilot

I hope you're right; however, their right to contact us after 8 hours is a violation of FAA rules. The electronic messages that they say do not interrupt rest, do. These 2 things MUST go away.

When I have a day that they tell me at 12pm, "we don't have anything for you today", and then they call me at 7pm for a position leg, that's rolling rest in my opinion. If you don't have any trips for me today, release me. Don't put me in rest at 5pm that day because, haven't I been in rest?? No one knows. This kind of stuff must go away and fast.

Getting 6 different assignments for my first day all the way until 10pm on my last day off is WRONG. When I get 7 or 8 different messages on my phone for 6 hours on my last day off, ISN'T A DAY OFF.

I will be shocked if they fix these problems. The rumor I keep hearing though is that the FAA is pushing this and not the company. Or, more importantly, pushing the company to do it. Has anyone else heard this?

I truly hope that the company is serious about making positive changes regarding this because it IS a safety issue and not just us whining. Lets see what happens.

 

[finnjl]

There are a lot of FOs making year 3 pay (2 plus years with the company)...by the end of April there will be 40 FOs on year 3 pay or 11% of the pilot group

as stated upgrades have stopped and the newest captains have a hire date of Jan 2006

 

[C604Pilot]

Correct me if I'm wrong...
I am one of several that is in the 1st class of Jan. 2006 and to my knowledge no one in that class has upgraded. IE, no one is acting as PIC or being paid as a Captain. We are all standing by waiting for a phone call. The current seniority list show the last upgrade as a class of Dec. 2005.