Flex Jet read file

[CL300Pilot]

Gret,

First thanks for your response as well as outerfix. According to our current sitting president, VP of Ops and others within management, we are going to be operated completely separate. We have been told by the above that FLOPS will maintain their hq and us ours. So, again, we are told that we are going to maintain totally separate companies and operations.

Now for the conspiracy question, and please bear in mind, I am not trying to start anything but am more curious as to the what ifs.

What happens if KR shuts down FLOPS and moves all of its business to Flex? lets say he files Ch. 7 on FLOPS or any other way you end a business? Does that not kill the 1108? All I hear is that Flex will be pulled into the 1108, but no one talks about the reverse. Again, who knows what is going to happen, but is this not a possibility as well? Then KR can go after CS again as well correct?

Tanks guys/gals.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

It would seem that they (mgmt and the union leaders) would want to clear the air ASAP to avoid the confusion - gret

The Union, yes. Mgmt, well not so much. FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt & remains the the universal means for mgmt's attempts at controlling the natives.

 

[gret]

It would seem that they (mgmt and the union leaders) would want to clear the air ASAP to avoid the confusion - gret

The Union, yes. Mgmt, well not so much. FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt & remains the the universal means for mgmt's attempts at controlling the natives.

I get it...but it is hard to see how mgmt would benefit by having hundreds of pilots speculating...usually we speculate on the dark side...

 

[gret]

Gret,

First thanks for your response as well as outerfix. According to our current sitting president, VP of Ops and others within management, we are going to be operated completely separate. We have been told by the above that FLOPS will maintain their hq and us ours. So, again, we are told that we are going to maintain totally separate companies and operations.

Now for the conspiracy question, and please bear in mind, I am not trying to start anything but am more curious as to the what ifs.

What happens if KR shuts down FLOPS and moves all of its business to Flex? lets say he files Ch. 7 on FLOPS or any other way you end a business? Does that not kill the 1108? All I hear is that Flex will be pulled into the 1108, but no one talks about the reverse. Again, who knows what is going to happen, but is this not a possibility as well? Then KR can go after CS again as well correct?

Tanks guys/gals.

Chapter 7 would also kill the business and the existing shareholders get wiped out...hard to believe sometimes, but this type of stuff rarely works as it doesn't pass the smell test and judges don't like looking like idiots.

...if the companies are not going merge any of the operations...I would bet that Flex will not be considered an air carrier and that there wouldn't be any requirements for the union stepping in...wouldn't bet much...

...bolder thoughts would include that FLOP pilots will see some additional benefits, Flex pilots would see a bit of decline and the two groups would end up with similar compensation packages after 18 to 24 months.

 

[993_Pilot]

Gret,
...What happens if KR shuts down FLOPS and moves all of its business to Flex? ... All I hear is that Flex will be pulled into the 1108, but no one talks about the reverse...

KR could try that. There are NO limits to what he will try in his attempt to break the union, including exploiting any and all grey areas, and possibly some downright illegal ones if he thinks a settlement won't cost him too much. We are in the dark as much as you Flex pilots about his intentions, but we have the benefit of hindsight from the Flops / RTA merger. Union representation was up for a vote at RTA, then the buyout was announced and KR came in and painted this wonderful picture of the future for the RTA group, including how as Flops pilots, they would always be the highest paid pilots in the fractional industry. So the union was not voted in. Eventually, reality set in, and we all realized it was time for representation. To be fair, KR was off property by then, but the need was recognized and the drive started while he was still around. Most of the pilots today would tell you that they recognize the benefits of union representation, even though it is not the perfect cure-all. I sincerely hope you get to keep all of your pay and benefits, and I am not trying to scare you guys, but rather wake you up to the reality that you are about to face.

They have already told us that they are going to meter sales through the forth quarter, so understand, that our biggest fear is that he would try to do something similar to what you suggested. They could push all the sales to Flex, and keep downsizing Flops, before any merger takes place as a way to get the union off property, and that prospect has us very worried, because we know what this management team is capable of, without a union to keep them in check. We really are all on the same side guys, i hope you can see that.

 

[CL300Pilot]

993 pilot,

I believe you would be hard pressed to find any pilot at Flex who does not feel we are all on the same side. We are all pulling for the FLOPS pilots to be brought up to us and not the other way around. We all know that only time will tell.

 

[993_Pilot]

993 pilot,

I believe you would be hard pressed to find any pilot at Flex who does not feel we are all on the same side. We are all pulling for the FLOPS pilots to be brought up to us and not the other way around. We all know that only time will tell.

Amen, brother! KR's game is to divide and conquer, and the sooner we all realize that and start sticking together and supporting one-another, the better. Don't believe all his rhetoric, and forecast for blue skies and rosy sunsets. Don't get me wrong, KR is a smart businessman, but the phrase, "employees are the foundation of a service company" and "We are all family" are just that... phrases... that look good on a brochure. Be skeptical of everything you hear and ask yourself whether what he says makes good business sense and rings true. Maybe I am a bit cynical, but it come with my experiences. The pilot shortage that has been predicted, but delayed for a decade now, is just around the corner. If our two pilot groups can refrain from selling each other short and letting KR play us against each other, we should all be fine. Hopefully this turns out well for us all.

 

[CL300Pilot]

993 Pilot,

What is meant by "metering sales?"

 

[jetwash]

993 Pilot,

What is meant by "metering sales?"

The number of aircraft online can not meet the current demand. If they take in new customers we will not be able to properly service their needs.

They need more aircraft and pilots. They thought that if they got the 19 aircraft from CS that would have solved the problem but now they are going into the busy season short of crews and aircraft.

 

[exagony]

we already "enjoy" the constant min rest and 14+ hour days...as far as all the anti-flex rants - we ahd no idea this was happenning (the sale) until the morning it was announced - not even an inkling... I haven't personally heard of one crew member at Flex who wants anything but both pilot groups to benefit from this... we have no more control of what has happened is about to happen then you do... not sure why so many FO guys are pissed at Flex crews...just saying...

 

[jetwash]

we already "enjoy" the constant min rest and 14+ hour days...as far as all the anti-flex rants - we ahd no idea this was happenning (the sale) until the morning it was announced - not even an inkling... I haven't personally heard of one crew member at Flex who wants anything but both pilot groups to benefit from this... we have no more control of what has happened is about to happen then you do... not sure why so many FO guys are pissed at Flex crews...just saying...

It's not FO guys pissed at Flex pilots, we see it as a positive.

The problem lies in internal FO pilots politics that is spilling over to Flight Info.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

Learn from past mistakes... When RTA complained about FO SFO pay, it was taken away. When RTA complained about FO travel allowance, it was taken away. When RTA complained about all the bases, they were taken away. When you complain about a specific group who has a benefit not available to everyone, it gets taken away. When FO complains that FJ pay is higher, it could be reduced. Unlike what BT says... be careful what you wish for cause you just might get it NONE. Don't attack ANYONE who has what others want, instead let those precedents be added benefits to others, even if not to all (i.e. Tier 3 basing). Lose the most common denominator mentality and the diverse group will benefit as a whole.

 

[993_Pilot]

What is meant by "metering sales?"

Basically what Jetwash said - they are going to pace the 4th quarter sales to in order to not be over-committed. However, I disagree with his assessment of the CA deal. I don't think they ever intended to do that deal, but rather used it as a way to drive a wedge in the pilot group. KR has never asked the union to sign any LOA to buy Sentient, Spinnaker, Constant Aviation, Nextant, Flexjet and several others, but he suddenly needs a LOA to buy CA??? I call B.S. on that. When KR painted a rosy picture of bringing back up to 85 of our furloughed pilots to staff the 19 CA aircraft, he got a lot of hopes up. Then he blames it on the union saying that they prevented him from doing the deal, when they did no such thing, they only refused to sign his LOA. He was still always free to do the CA deal if he really wanted. Unfortunately, a small group of our pilots (both current and furloughed) bought in to his BS and he has driven a small wedge in to the group. I hope I am wrong, but I predict he will attempt to do something to drive a wedge between the Flex group and us too, and then blame it on the union again. His main goal is to have a divided pilot group in order to eventually get the union off property.

... not sure why so many FO guys are pissed at Flex crews...just saying...

While there may be one or two, most of us definitely are NOT upset. I encourage all the Flops and flex crews to introduce ourselves to each other, and start a dialog. There may be a few bitter extemists on both sides of the fence, but I am sure if we can get some dialog started, both sides will clear up a lot of misconceptions, and learn that most of us are reasonable people, that basically want the same things.

...Don't attack ANYONE who has what others want, instead let those precedents be added benefits to others...

I agree with this, but let's not blame it all on the RTA pilots, that is just more divisiveness, because the truth is that mostly these things were simply taken away by Sheeringa. The important thing here is for both pilot groups to try to lift each other up, and stand together as KR tries to play us against one another.

 

[flex*wife]

Gret, Doh, Flex jet wife, anybody else at flex. Reap what you sow! Congratulations on not having paid any union dues to anyone yet. I hope you can stand back and enjoy not having to be in the frey up to this point. good luck protecting your salary into 2014. Thank you for the general promotion of fractional pilot salary..........freight!

How did I get lumped into your tirade? I don't think you have ever understood a post I've written if you think that was deserved...

Everyone is in the same boat just usin different oars. Let's try to row together instead of spinning in circles...

 

[Newkem]

Learn from past mistakes... When RTA complained about FO SFO pay, it was taken away. When RTA complained about FO travel allowance, it was taken away. When RTA complained about all the bases, they were taken away. When you complain about a specific group who has a benefit not available to everyone, it gets taken away. When FO complains that FJ pay is higher, it could be reduced. Unlike what BT says... be careful what you wish for cause you just might get it NONE. Don't attack ANYONE who has what others want, instead let those precedents be added benefits to others, even if not to all (i.e. Tier 3 basing). Lose the most common denominator mentality and the diverse group will benefit as a whole.

Sounds like your management = the third reich.

Id be willing to bet one day's perdeim that FO has airplanes parked uncrewed right now. Anybody? Mike mike mike mike mike.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

hawker retirement package

FlOps is retiring its hawkers and its pilots. For active hawker pilots assigned to the hawker fleet that may be considering voluntary separation from the company, here's the new low in retirement packages:

a. The Pilot's separation resigns his position with the Company, removes him from the Flight Options Pilots Seniority List and relinquishes any rights to recall.
b. The Pilot will receive a lump-sum, onetime payment of $25,000 or one (1) week of pay at his current 8 & 7 schedule pay rate for each year of completed service, whichever is greater. This onetime payment shall be
payable on December 31, 2013.
c. The balance of all remaining PTO in the Pilot's account will be paid in full on December 31, 2013.
d. The Company will pay the Pilot's entire COBRA premiums for six (6) months with an additional twelve (12) months of eligibility at the Pilot's expense.

In other words: You're disposable. We don't need you, we don't want you, & we don't think that much of you. Yeah, I know we said employees are the foundation of a service company and all. But that was when we needed you. Take your 25 large, shut up, & gtfo.

Some people will call this an incentive: I call it an insult. It is indicative of how management views the pilots. There's a union at FlOps and that is the only reason why this LOA was drafted. It would have been far simpler for management to announce a second out-of-seniority reduction-in-force (RIF). Flex Jet pilots take note: FlOps pilots don't dislike you. We only want you to know that the story you're hearing from Uncle is not in fact the only story to be told.

 

[gret]

Isn't this a voluntary program?

You say it is horrible, what would you suggest they offer?

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

offer was short one digit

Uncle bought a portion of Flex for $185 million. A 25 hour 'value' jet card used to cost $99,000. The money is out there, we're just lead to believe it's not. A serious offer for a voluntary rif, for a >10 year employee, would be an amount of at least $125,000 or one year's salary equivalent, whichever is greater. (And $125,000 is far below where FlOps wages should be).

Oh, and a gold watch.

 

[shanes123]

Exact on the mark ludicris. Just more of the typical you should be grateful for what we offer and except it and move on. What people forget is the 1108 took this crappy contract and I agree it is crap because the company cried bad economy, we don't have any money, this is the best we can do we wanna give you more but we can't afford it. So after 4 years of this nonsense the union settled. Never once did the company say you guys our family and we are gonna pay you what your worth they never said we want iyou guys to have great scope protection and the best work rules in the industry we want you guys to have a generous 401k match and awesome health benefits. Instead they fought tooth and nail to whittle away everything they could from the pilots. As they stuffed their own greedy pockets. That's the future that flexjets holds. Flex don't have a union cause they never needed one. Flops has a union cause they were forced into voting it in just to survive being paid slightly more than a Walmart greeter. With not as good a benefit package and no 401k match

 

[Fresh Air]

Understanding the Flex crews' position

It's unfair to expect the Flex crews to be enthusiastic about unionizing. Remember, we Options crews voted against it the first time around, and didn't get it done until we were saddled with a management team so offensive that we didn't have a choice. As much as I would like to see the Flex crews take the benefit of our experience and join us, I can't blame them for not doing it. In the same situation I would feel the same way. Unionizing is a big step, and happy crews don't take that step. Overall the Flex crews seem pretty happy. If and when DAC starts bringing the pain, perhaps we can help them organize if they decide to do so, but until then, it seems pointless to browbeat them about something that they have already decided. It's not as if anonymous posts on an internet message board have ever convinced anyone to change their minds about anything, ever, anyhow.....