FLASH, This just in,...NWA and DAL pilots

[~~~^~~~]

The majors have been undercut by the regionals for years.

That is because the mainline pilots drew a circle around that flying that excluded the pilots performing it. A union's primary job is to bring folks together. By keeping us separate and allowing alter ego competition, we have reaped exactly what we have sown.

 

[Superpilot92]

That is because the mainline pilots drew a circle around that flying that excluded the pilots performing it. A union's primary job is to bring folks together. By keeping us separate and allowing alter ego competition, we have reaped exactly what we have sown.

You did read my entire post didnt you? Re-Read it and you will see i just said what you posted in responce to my post :laugh:

 

[~~~^~~~]

So maybe I'm agreeing with you.

 

[Superpilot92]

So maybe I'm agreeing with you.

Ok good now we are getting somewhere I just wanted to make sure because you quoted only the part that made my post look negative and i wanted to clarify that that was just the beginning of my well orchestrated post :beer:

 

[~~~^~~~]

Superpilot:

What Joe will correctly point out is that NWA and Delta's rates on similar equipment undercuts ASA's contract rates. Sad, but true. He's got us there.

 

[Superpilot92]

Superpilot:

What Joe will correctly point out is that NWA and Delta's rates on similar equipment undercuts ASA's contract rates. Sad, but true. He's got us there.

Oh you mean the concessionary rates? So when those go up will his go up? He didn't get us there my friend. His company and our old companies thrived after 9/11 where NWA/DAL took massive hits. Compare those rates and he has no argument. Plus had mainline not given up that flying his company wouldn't exist in its present form, correct? two sides to every coin.

 

[NuGuy]

Perhaps within the MEC, but not at the line pilot level.

A course reversal, regardless of sound logic and reason, would destroy credibility and trust. Already there was a halfway organized run on the MEC. Take the goodies off the table, along with job protections and the fear of fleet reductions and it is a highly undesireable position for any ALPA politician. A very quick way to be outside the circle of trust.

We don't know if Occam's bomb is real, a Hollywood prop, or wishful thinking on the part of the NWA MEC.

Both sides are pretty well painted in a corner.

Now management on the other hand.... although Occam says this is a MEC thing.... hmm, still need a lot more information....

Heyas Fins,

Occam's reports are correct. There have been "talks" going during the week. Management's job has been done for weeks, and they just need to make a phone call.

You are right that both sides are painted in the corner. But the sad fact is that this merger has been planned out for a long time, and a few pissy, whiney pilots are not going to stop it, despite what goodwill "promises" were made.

Word came down from the respective companies:"this thing is going to happen...period. So you guys can either get onboard or get run over." This is why you see an abrupt about face and the two groups meeting again. Union politics at this point are irrelevant.

I suspect that any agreement will split the difference between the last two respective positions...just like most good negotiations do. Each side will be able to save face by bringing something back, there will be a hue and cry from the vocal minority, but the huge silent majority at each airline will see the writing on the wall, and vote the thing in.

Then we can get on with the business of being pissed at each other for the rest of our careers, with NWA guys wearing buttons that say "Keep Delta their Delta" and cutsey little stickers on the DAL flight bags that have a Viking with a circle and slash.

In the end, it won't matter one iota what any of us thinks.

Nu

 

[Draginass]

Spoken like a true management shill . . . . take whatever is shoved down your throat and like it.

 

[Jimmy C. Corn]

...but the huge silent majority at each airline will see the writing on the wall, and vote the thing in.

I know of a great may folks at Delta who had no plans to "rubber stamp" the original plan (pay raises of 7/4/4/4% seemed pretty low, even with some "equity").

I bet even fewer will vote "yes" if the new agreement offers less.

Then Delta can raise the bar over AA's, SWA's, and CAL's new contracts next year...the way it's supposed to work. Beats settling for a concessionary contract going forward.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I am just curious if the 9's will be parked. If they are we are in store for lots of furloughs at this new airline

 

[johnsonrod]

I am just curious if the 9's will be parked. If they are we are in store for lots of furloughs at this new airline

Thank goodness for Compass on the NWA side...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Word came down from the respective companies:"this thing is going to happen...period. So you guys can either get onboard or get run over."

I suspect that any agreement will split the difference between the last two respective positions....

Then we can get on with the business of being pissed at each other for the rest of our careers....

Nu

Nu,

That would be a reversal for the Delta Management team and Delta's pilot leadership. The press is not reporting "this thing is going to happen, period" and internally Delta is touting it's stand alone plan.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam:

You could be correct, but politically I can not find it to be a credible report given other known facts.

WTF are you talking about?

Both sides will continue to try to reach agreement up until the moment that option is removed by other events.

Period.

There have, and will, be "gaps" in direct engagement...for various reasons. Doesn't matter. Both MEC teams understand the importance of getting a deal, especially if the airlines are going to be merged regardless.

Don't confuse the juvenile banter on this forum, or the often-manipulated reporting in the media as indicative of what is actually taking place.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Occam:

We were, and are, told that the option has been removed by other events. We were also told this was not a negotiation, this was a deal.

Look at the contrast in rumors. Internally, Delta's senior leadership (who would keep their jobs) are saying the stand alone plan is a better option and fuel prices mean any deal with NWA would have to be completely re-evaluated. Crew room rumors started by flight operations management, fleet and network management, involves a bunch more 777-200LR jets. Thus far, Delta's objective decisions on hiring and routes match these subjective rumors.

On the NWA side, all we hear about is the merger's inevitability.

I'm not calling you a liar, but somebody somewhere is completely failing to manage expectations and that could very well be a fatal political mistake.

There have been some off hand rumors of buying parts of NWA, but I dismissed those comments. Are you hearing that on the NWA side?

I'll admit the Delta BOD could over ride Delta's leadership, but ALPA's got a person on the board and of course Anderson is there. My point is if what you write is true, many people have painted themselves in a corner and the political fall out would be nasty for not only for the Delta Reps, but also senior management.

I genuinely disagree with you about the merger's inevitability. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I simply do not see how it can be forced by the minority who's management will not be the leadership in the combined entity. Perhaps you are right and I am a fool for believing the press, my reps, and management who are held accountable, over nameless web board rumor. But you are very convinced, and convincing.... Thank you for the information in any event.

 

[Superpilot92]

Why is it that a large group of the DAL posters on hear come across as Armchair CEO's? Do some of you actually think you have control over what happens in the board meetings with the CEO's? Now back to your regularly scheduled flame fest.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Someone else put this together for me.

As the press reported, NWA wants to restructure the deal without pilot participation. DAL would be forced by their fiduciary responsibilities to look at the proposal. These facts could be very easily misinterpreted by NWA pilot leasership.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Why is it that a large group of the DAL posters on hear come across as Armchair CEO's? Do some of you actually think you have control over what happens in the board meetings with the CEO's? Now back to your regularly scheduled flame fest.

Another part of Delta's unique culture... much of their senior leadership are pilots. True more often in the past than now, but the tradition remains and management keeps a very open door with the pilot group.

It has a positive effect for both management and pilots IMHO.

and don't forget, you are here also....

 

[Fly4hire]

Someone else put this together for me.

As the press reported, NWA wants to restructure the deal without pilot participation. DAL would be forced by their fiduciary responsibilities to look at the proposal. These facts could be very easily misinterpreted by NWA pilot leasership.

You are making the assumption that it is NWA management re-initiating an otherwise dead deal instead of the well orchestrated PR of what is already a predetermined course of action.

We know NWA management are "bad guys". We know that RA has managed to foster a level of trust with his new employees. To about face and jam it to them and say "take it or leave it" would destroy that good faith.

What better ploy than to blame it on the bad guys and the BOD. Sorry boys, I had no choice (ditto Moak).

I'm beginning to believe with the apparent momentum and financial forces behind it, this thing was going to go through one way or another, and now that we didn't bite at the carrot we are going to get beaten senseless with the stick.

 

[IXLR8]

We know NWA management are "bad guys". We know that RA has managed to foster a level of trust with his new employees. To about face and jam it to them and say "take it or leave it" would destroy that good faith.

What better ploy than to blame it on the bad guys and the BOD. Sorry boys, I had no choice (ditto Moak).

I'm beginning to believe with the apparent momentum and financial forces behind it, this thing was going to go through one way or another, and now that we didn't bite at the carrot we are going to get beaten senseless with the stick.

Agree....RA always tries to be the good guy...make DS the bad, again.

 

[~~~^~~~]

You are making the assumption that it is NWA management re-initiating an otherwise dead deal instead of the well orchestrated PR of what is already a predetermined course of action.

No this is not pre-planned PR.

If the merger happens despite the pilots' objections and with blame placed for the failure to secure $2 Billion dollars worth of pay and benefits there will never be peace between the pilot groups.

Jeesh, I need to get off this board and update my resume.

 

[Eagle757shark]

The airline's No. 2 executive, Ed Bastian, had been scheduled to make the trip but canceled amid talk that merger discussions with Northwest Airlines may be re-heating. Similarly, Delta chief executive Richard Anderson canceled plans to be on a new flight to London's Heathrow Airport, also being inaugurated Sunday.




This is a quote from the Atlanta journal constitution regarding the new non-stop service between Atlanta and China. It looks like the Delta executives are serious about this merger with Northwest seeing that the CEO and president cancelled their trips with the Governor and business delegates from Atlanta. This merger may be imminent. April 2008 will be very interesting.

 

[Occam's Razor]

We were, and are, told that the option has been removed by other events. We were also told this was not a negotiation, this was a deal.

The separation of fact from public posturing to force movement by the other side is an difficult process. That's why I've always advocated watching their feet.

I'm not calling you a liar, but somebody somewhere is completely failing to manage expectations and that could very well be a fatal political mistake.

The legitimacy of your (or my) expectations depends on how close to the topic we are when me make them. The farther you step back to observe the industry - and our place within it - the more pragmatic you become. Show me a pilot with a "normal" career path who realized all of his expectations...and you'll see he was the exception rather than the rule.

The people that will make the ultimate decision on this merger are the amoral cannibals at Wayzata, Cargill, Pardus, Blackstone, and Owl Creek...along with our SkyTeam cousins at AF/KLM. Anderson will have a say, but he doesn't hold a majority of the shares (and proxies) those vultures do.

I'll admit the Delta BOD could over ride Delta's leadership, but ALPA's got a person on the board and of course Anderson is there. My point is if what you write is true, many people have painted themselves in a corner and the political fall out would be nasty for not only for the Delta Reps, but also senior management.

1. "Could" override? He is THEIR tool...not vice versa. If it happens it will be their decision, and Richard will do what they say.

2. Your BOD seat is non-voting. That's an F/A giving you advice on how to land in a crosswind from behind the door.

3. Public statements have a purpose. Your Merger Team has done a little negotiating in the press with them to elicit a reaction from us. We've done the same, essentially. The management statements have been made to prevent panic and/or a log-jam by middle managers at the good resume printer.

I genuinely disagree with you about the merger's inevitability. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I simply do not see how it can be forced by the minority who's management will not be the leadership in the combined entity.

A little Googling is in order then. Count the voting shares held by investors who aren't interested in building or running an airline. They are NOT the "minority". Add a party-of-interest (AF/KLM) with a desire to solidify their future and a checkbook full of euros, and you have the perfect set-up for this.

The displaced managers will be compensated, and will hook up with other airlines.

Perhaps you are right and I am a fool for believing the press, my reps, and management who are held accountable, over nameless web board rumor.

Nah...all you gotta do is review which source has been more accurate to-date.

 

[NuGuy]

The management statements have been made to prevent panic and/or a log-jam by middle managers at the good resume printer.

Heyas Occam,

I've been trying to use that printer, but all it does is sit there and say "PC LOAD LETTER". What the fcuk does that mean?

Nu