First Officer Programs

[sorenk]

It would be more economical to buy a 152 and fly that with $100k - you'd end up with a butt load of hours.

you can't get those all important twin pic hours in a 152.

 

[T-REX]

Very selfish and sounds like you have already made your mind up. If we can't get through to you on why this is ethically wrong lets try financially:

By the tme you are forced to retire in 20 years that 30K-100K would really come in handy.

$30K for 20 yrs @ 10% APR= $189,843
$100K " " = $632,810

Pensions dont exist anymore. How much can you expect to have in your 401K after making 20-35K for the next 5-10 years???

 

[T-REX]

you can't get those all important twin pic hours in a 152.

Dont get any twin pic talking on the radios of a 1900 either!

 

[Lightheart]

I think what we have to accept here is that these FO programs are a dynamic within this industry. It's all about money (and I'd rather not give them mine, believe me). They're not going to go away and whilst they continue then there will always be pilots willing to pay for experience.

When I was in univeristy I was put on work placement (without pay) to gain experience in my chosen field as part of the course. How is that different?

I made my original post in good faith, looking for objective advice, because these FO Programs ARE an option in this industry, like it or not. They are here to stay.

Subjective opinions are not of interest.

 

[Lightheart]

By the way, I've not made up my mind on anything yet.

 

[CUEBOAT]

Thank you to everyone who's replied so far.

To those who have seen it fit to call me a "whore" , well, perhaps you should know one or two facts. I have sold my home with a view of training to achieve my dream (noone's paying for me). Because of my age and personal circumstances I have been advised by the head of training in my current FBO, my FAA examiner and one Jet Blue captain to seriously consider the FO Program route.

I'm not American. I live in Spain, where a PPL takes on average 7-8 months. At this rate there is no way I could achieve the hours, never mind, twin/turbine time in 18 months. Once qualified I will have to leave the country to look for employment because new pilots over 30 don't get a look in (especially if your Daddy is not Operations Manager or you're not dating the President's daughter). If you're not connected ("tener enchufe" as they say in Spain), forget it.

My flight instructor (as well as many others in my FBO) have tried Banner towing etc route to no avail. I do not like the idea of spending more money to get the experience I need, but if this is my only route, then I'm going to have to sacrifice a home to complete my training (not easy as I want to get married next year). Some of these flight instructors are also going on to "top up" their hours with turbine time at these FO Programs.

After all said and done, if anyone still has a problem with this, then unfortunately, it's THEIR problem. I'm going to do whatever it takes (within reason) to get it done. I am not doing anything to be ashamed of, and being called a "whore" isn't going to change my opinion.

Please keep those suggestions coming in, and safe flying.

I know of at least 6 pilots not originally from the USofA that all now fly jets and never paid for an FO seat. 4 of them fly learjets, the other 2 in an AirBus for two different major airlines. 2 of which were older than you when they learned to fly, both now flying lears, one of which has earned a captain's position. So please don't post on here how you have it more difficult than anyone. No one really cares what hardships you think you have faced, cause guess what. Everyone has their own problems. No matter what you think PFT makes it worse for all pilots. Go'head and throw you house away by purchasing another pilot's job. Im sure you soon to be wife will be happy with you selling a home to buy a $18.500 a year job. She'll probably end up leaving you for your poor decision making. Unless ofcourse you are paying her to be your bride to get a greencard.

 

[wheelsup]

I think what we have to accept here is that these FO programs are a dynamic within this industry. It's all about money (and I'd rather not give them mine, believe me). They're not going to go away and whilst they continue then there will always be pilots willing to pay for experience.

They will if NO ONE does them, or if companies can't get anyone to apply for a seat that is required by law (FAR's) to be occupied.

When I was in univeristy I was put on work placement (without pay) to gain experience in my chosen field as part of the course. How is that different?

You weren't putting someone else out of work by doing that - interns don't replace full time workers.

If you pay to occupy a seat (a la gulfstream academy) that would normally go to a paid pilot, that's when people get upset. Some people get upset with people paying to occupy a seat for which they aren't required to be there because it allows those companies to underbid other, more upstanding companies.

Subjective opinions are not of interest.

Since we're really only dealing with ethics and morals here, and it appears you have none and would rather pay for a shot at a job instead of earning it, the opinions are all subjective (with the exception of the monetary issue, as another issue highlighted).

~wheelsup

 

[Lightheart]

Cueboat,

This was exactly the type of feed back I wanted. To know of people like myself and how they did it. Then there IS hope! Perhaps you could help me contact them to hear their stories? The whole idea of posting was to educate myself into an informed decision.

I explained a little of my background to try and transmit the rationale for my thought process. I am not a victim, and certainly in NO way was it intended as a hardluck story. I think of myself as quite lucky to be at least on the path to realising my dream.

You don't know me, don't know what I've achieved in my life through my own hard work. Therefore, making outrageous assumptions about an unknown person, I believe says something more about you, your attitude to life and lack of respect that maybe, just maybe, there are other people out there that have different opinion that you!

My bride-to-be is a wonderful Spanish lady, and we've always given each other 100% support in what we do. As I said, I'm very lucky!

This is the last time I shall be responding to personal abuse. I was looking for objetive, aviation advice.

 

[Lightheart]

Wheelsup,

Apart from my age and the time it would take, the idea of instructing just doesn't appeal to me. I do not want to take any pilots job. Just get some experience and leave.

I agree with you that if noone did it then these places would be out of business. The fact is some students and flight instructors in my FBO are doing them (this number would be higher as others have told me that they would do it if they had the money!). My instructor told me that he would have done it had he had the money. I'm under the belief that there would be more of this going on if more people had more resources. That's something to think about. Maybe there wouldn't be so much PFT bashing??

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree that PFT is an option. Not everything in life is fair and this seems to be one of those cases....to pay for something whilst some other pilot waits by the wings (excuse the pun). As I said in an earlier post, it is a dynamic in this industry.

I thank you and everyone else for your opinions, only regret that it causes such acrimony amongst many. But it is every persons attitude towards the subject that will determine if it's a "good/bad" thing to do. Thinking one or the other doesn't make the opposite opinion right or wrong.

 

[Lightheart]

http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=8e8f21cb7d22bf9dd185f5e5e83f3ec8& thread

Hope the above link works. Posted a similar thread on pprune and got a really good idea.

Note the lack of personal abuse.

 

[Piper877]

Hope the above link works. Posted a similar thread on pprune and got a really good idea.

Note the lack of personal abuse.

Most of the people here are very very very angry about their job and/or the path they took to get it. Most of the people that insult you and try to convince you that doing anything except the exact path they took is ridiculous. Don't listen to them, do what you need/want to do and enjoy your life.
Although be aware that you might run into people in the field that look down on the PFT route. However I don't forsee many situations where a captain would look over an FO's logbook to ensure he didn't PFT before they fly.
Anyway, best of luck to you and your wife.

 

[CUEBOAT]

Cueboat,


You don't know me, don't know what I've achieved in my life through my own hard work. Therefore, making outrageous assumptions about an unknown person, I believe says something more about you, your attitude to life and lack of respect that maybe, just maybe, there are other people out there that have different opinion that you!

hahahah doing the exact thing you are accusing me of, quit comical. I understand people have different opinion's which is fine, but PFT isn't the only answer to your problem. Earn you ratings, get a job, and keep your house. Live happily ever after. All above people I wrote of were CFIs for a year and a half at most, give or take a month or two. Then went right into flying a jet or turboprop. You can do it too, just use that hardwork you mentioned above. Then scoff at all those that wasted money on PFT/first officer programs.
goodluck

 

[Flechas]

Being a First Offficer is a JOB, not a program, get a job!!!

 

[MD11Drvr]

I'm sorry Lighteart the concensus is in PFT is wrong. We all have our stories, mine A&P while pulling banners and traffic. Night fright in Azrecs and Cherokee 6's then check for the Fed reserve in Lears all the while going deeper into debt because these jobs paid crap wages. Try 800.00/month as a Lear co-pilot flying 80+ hours a month. Then 1200-1800.00/month as Capt. I never paid for training but I had PFT's shoved in my face all the time as they would do my job and pay to do it. At the wages we were working for it was whoring for the dream and the dream blinded us to that. I think you are thinking about this and trying to use youur head so do the right thing. No PFT just be professional and work hard folks will see it and help a brother out. But PFT and you are no brother to most of us. Its nearly as bad as being a SCAB to most of us.

My best advice go get a job at a busy FBO work hard and let folks know you have ratings and the desire. I feel a responsibility to help a guy coming up to sort of pay back the guys who helped me out and plenty of guys feel the same way. Don't take the shortcut! Earn it it feels better...

 

[CUEBOAT]

I'm sorry Lighteart the concensus is in PFT is wrong. We all have our stories, mine A&P while pulling banners and traffic. Night fright in Azrecs and Cherokee 6's then check for the Fed reserve in Lears all the while going deeper into debt because these jobs paid crap wages. Try 800.00/month as a Lear co-pilot flying 80+ hours a month. Then 1200-1800.00/month as Capt. I never paid for training but I had PFT's shoved in my face all the time as they would do my job and pay to do it. At the wages we were working for it was whoring for the dream and the dream blinded us to that. I think you are thinking about this and trying to use youur head so do the right thing. No PFT just be professional and work hard folks will see it and help a brother out. But PFT and you are no brother to most of us. Its nearly as bad as being a SCAB to most of us.

My best advice go get a job at a busy FBO work hard and let folks know you have ratings and the desire. I feel a responsibility to help a guy coming up to sort of pay back the guys who helped me out and plenty of guys feel the same way. Don't take the shortcut! Earn it it feels better...

AMENBROTHER