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First Mesaba then Pinnacle

FlyingToIST

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Pinnacle Air says did not receive Northwest payment
Fri Sep 16, 2005 09:33 AM ET
CHICAGO, Sept 16 (Reuters) - Pinnacle Airlines Corp. (PNCL.O: Quote, Profile, Research) , a regional partner of bankrupt Northwest Airlines (NWAC.O: Quote, Profile, Research) , on Friday said it did not receive a net $22 million payment due on Thursday from the No. 4 U.S. carrier. Pinnacle said in a government filing that it does not expect to receive immediate payments of any amounts due on Sept. 15.
 

BoDEAN

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Wonder how this will affect the hiring at both airlines.
 

Dave Benjamin

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I'd be more concerned about future concessions than I would hiring.
 

Lear70

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Dave Benjamin said:
I'd be more concerned about future concessions than I would hiring.
BINGO!

With NWA in Chapt 11 look for renegotiation of the ASA's (Air Service Agreements) with each carrier, paying LESS than they were, then MSA and PCL mgmt coming and saying "We had to take cuts on our ASA so YOU have to take cuts".

Just when I thought it couldn't get much worse. *sigh*
 

inthewind

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Here comes the Bain Consulting Group. Look out boys and girls you are about to be farked!
 

blackbox

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Dave Benjamin said:
I'd be more concerned about future concessions than I would hiring.
Ha, thats gonna be interesting. Pinnacle is the lowest paid RJ pilots. We cant afford to get paid less. Everyone b$#%es about SKywest being non-union and 1 pay scale for flying the 200 and the 700. How about ALPA represented pilots being well under-paid thanthat non-union carrier.
 
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PCL_128

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Lear70 said:
BINGO!

With NWA in Chapt 11 look for renegotiation of the ASA's (Air Service Agreements) with each carrier, paying LESS than they were, then MSA and PCL mgmt coming and saying "We had to take cuts on our ASA so YOU have to take cuts".

Just when I thought it couldn't get much worse. *sigh*
Renegotiating the ASA is almost a given at this point. Our current ASA guarantees us about a 10% profit margin. Expect that to be trimmed to somewhere in the 4-6% range in the not-too-distant future. Not sure what Mesaba's margins are, but I'm sure they'll be trimmed if at all possible also.

As for concessions from the pilot group, don't hold your breath. That won't even be entertained by the Association. Besides, that would be a complete 180 degree turn from the way negotiations have been going up until now. Our margins will be cut, but not eliminated, so I doubt management will make such a large change in their negotiating practices. They want to secure opportunities for any future 70-90 seat flying, and they can only get that with a completed pilot CBA.
 

kmox29

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PCL_128 said:
As for concessions from the pilot group, don't hold your breath. That won't even be entertained by the Association. Besides, that would be a complete 180 degree turn from the way negotiations have been going up until now.
How have your negotiations been going up until now? I remember having a lot of sections TA'd early on in our negotiations. However, 'Hostage of War Benefits' hardly needed change. Have you guys TA'd anything substantial? Recognition and Scope, Scheduling, Retirement (watch some guys tell you this one isn't as important because they're going to a major :) ), Compensation, Duration, Training and Testing, or Hours of Service? It's these sections that will bring out the true colors of your management.

PCL_128 said:
Our margins will be cut, but not eliminated, so I doubt management will make such a large change in their negotiating practices.
I hate to say it, but a bankruptcy at NWA was probably a wet dream for your management. "How can you possibly ask for a leading contract when NWA is in bankruptcy?", they'll say.

PCL_128 said:
They want to secure opportunities for any future 70-90 seat flying, and they can only get that with a completed pilot CBA.
This last part made me laugh. Only because it is almost word for word as to what our CEO told us in negotiations. Your last quote I posted here will be used AGAINST you. Think about it. Your management team knows EXACTLY what a 70-90 seat jet will cost them in terms of pilot compensation. Do you really think they don't have a maximum dollar figure in their head that they are willing to sign your contract for? They know. BUT, they will tell you to hurry up and agree to their crap contract proposal because if you continue to waste time negotiating, those jets will go to another regional.

In reality, NWA knows exactly when and where all future aircraft are going. Your contract has little to do with it.
 

Monster Buck

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kmox29 said it pretty well. One thing to add to the others that didn't know. Mesaba signed the ASA last week when both parties were full aware of the BK filing. That doesn't mean I think it can't change, but it was already taken into consideration by our co. and NWA.
 
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redflyer65

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Our management tried this shortly after 9/11, saying 'well, everyone else is taking concessions, we probably need to as well". The only thing concessions would have done then would have put more money in their pocket. They have been taking in millions every quarter off this service agreement. Labor sure hasn't seen any of it. I say it's finally time for management to manage. Not just be in the right place at the right time, because that's whats been going on for the past 5 years. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.

I think a re-negiotation of the service agreement should mean that the management bonuses will be less. Nothing else. Are we expecting a industry leading contract? No. Never have. We need better work rules, and the committee knows exactly what we expect. We have already been one of the lowest paying for a while. We will not accept a Mesa contract. Period. Bankruptcy or not.
 

another cfii

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As far as the missing payment, PCL doesn't own anything, since everything we have are leased-back. I don't know how they would react to any more delinquency from NW. On the other hand, they have already stopped all hiring except for Pilot and MX.

I think it's all a russ to get the best possible deal out of BK, cuz it won't do them any good if we all sit on the ground.
 

Lear70

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blackbox said:
Ha, thats gonna be interesting. Pinnacle is the lowest paid RJ pilots. We cant afford to get paid less.
No we're not; we're middle of the pack actually for 44- and 50-seat CRJ's in the left seat; F/O pay is definitely at the bottom end. Not that I don't think we need MORE - I do, but unfortunately the entire industry is in a tailspin for salaries and we're caught right smack dab in the middle.

RAs for concessions from the pilot group, don't hold your breath. That won't even be entertained by the Association. Besides, that would be a complete 180 degree turn from the way negotiations have been going up until now.
Oh don't get me wrong, I NEVER said we will GIVE concessions, I just said mgmt will come asking for them now.

Our margins will be cut, but not eliminated, so I doubt management will make such a large change in their negotiating practices. They want to secure opportunities for any future 70-90 seat flying, and they can only get that with a completed pilot CBA.
That's where we disagree; I expect a DRASTIC departure from management's current approach to bargaining once NWA comes with a cut in margin. Negotiations are about to get a WHOLE LOT HARDER for our negotiating team.

Incidentally, I'm not voting for jack shiznit without a HEFTY increase in QOL and pay. 10 to 11 days off a month and having to massage my line by trip trading ALL MONTH LONG just to get some decent home time is NOT my idea of a life; more like indentured servitude.
 

PCL_128

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kmox29 said:
How have your negotiations been going up until now? I remember having a lot of sections TA'd early on in our negotiations. However, 'Hostage of War Benefits' hardly needed change. Have you guys TA'd anything substantial?
Yes, several substantial sections have been TA'd at this point. Compensation and Scope will most likely wait until the end of negotiations, but we are about to begin on Scheduling shortly.

This last part made me laugh. Only because it is almost word for word as to what our CEO told us in negotiations. Your last quote I posted here will be used AGAINST you. Think about it. Your management team knows EXACTLY what a 70-90 seat jet will cost them in terms of pilot compensation. Do you really think they don't have a maximum dollar figure in their head that they are willing to sign your contract for? They know. BUT, they will tell you to hurry up and agree to their crap contract proposal because if you continue to waste time negotiating, those jets will go to another regional.
I really don't care whether we get bigger jets or not, and that's the way most of the pilot group feels about it, so don't expect us to be rushed into any proposal simply because of bigger jets. If they go somewhere else, then so be it. Our concern is a fair contract, not financing bigger airplanes.

In reality, NWA knows exactly when and where all future aircraft are going. Your contract has little to do with it.
I disagree. Besides, it's not just about NWA. Our management would like to bid on 70-90 seat flying for other airlines also, and they won't be able to do that until the contract is settled.
 

PCL_128

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Lear70 said:
That's where we disagree; I expect a DRASTIC departure from management's current approach to bargaining once NWA comes with a cut in margin. Negotiations are about to get a WHOLE LOT HARDER for our negotiating team.
We'll see very soon. It won't be long before we start negotiating on Section 25 and that's where we'll find out what management's true intentions are at the table. I happen to believe that it will get slightly more contentious, but not drastically so.

Incidentally, I'm not voting for jack shiznit without a HEFTY increase in QOL and pay. 10 to 11 days off a month and having to massage my line by trip trading ALL MONTH LONG just to get some decent home time is NOT my idea of a life; more like indentured servitude.
Agreed. I'm junior to you and will be finishing upgrade right around November just in time for the shoot to hit the fan with everyone timing out. It certainly won't be fun going from 17 days off a month as an FO to 10 as a Captain. QOL is definitely top priority for the next contract.
 

kmox29

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PCL_128 said:
Yes, several substantial sections have been TA'd at this point. Compensation and Scope will most likely wait until the end of negotiations, but we are about to begin on Scheduling shortly.
Glad to hear several substantial sections have been TA'd. Which ones are they? Any of the ones I mentioned?

PCL_128 said:
don't expect us to be rushed into any proposal simply because of bigger jets.
You better not be rushed into anything. That's management's dream. I have faith in 9E guys that you will hold out for what is right. I just responded to you because you sounded just like our current CEO with regards to getting a CBA quickly to bid on more flying.

PCL_128 said:
Besides, it's not just about NWA. Our management would like to bid on 70-90 seat flying for other airlines also, and they won't be able to do that until the contract is settled.
Why do you believe this line of crap from upper management? Do you have any idea what was promised to the Mesaba pilots over the past 6 years? Do you know how many of those promises were delivered? Why do you think that 9E pilots will be flying 70-90 seat jets for someone else? Your new contract will be too expensive. NWA won't allow it. (See XJ's failed attempt at a cargo operation and flying for a different carrier)

*sigh* I have to apologize, maybe I'm jaded because I've spent 6 years at Mesaba and been through a contract negotiation. I am assuming you haven't been at 9E for more than 2 years and have never seen a contract negotiation. If I'm wrong, I apologize again.
 

PCL_128

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kmox29 said:
Glad to hear several substantial sections have been TA'd. Which ones are they? Any of the ones I mentioned?
I don't have all of that info with me right now, but two recent section TAs that come to mind are Contract Grievances/System Board and Filling of Vacancies. Certainly not as substantial as Scope or Compensation, but not as trivial as Uniforms or Prisoners/Hostages either. As I said, the biggest sections are always saved till the end of any negotiations, but we have been very surprised at the speed of negotiations up until now.

Why do you believe this line of crap from upper management? Do you have any idea what was promised to the Mesaba pilots over the past 6 years? Do you know how many of those promises were delivered? Why do you think that 9E pilots will be flying 70-90 seat jets for someone else? Your new contract will be too expensive. NWA won't allow it. (See XJ's failed attempt at a cargo operation and flying for a different carrier)

*sigh* I have to apologize, maybe I'm jaded because I've spent 6 years at Mesaba and been through a contract negotiation. I am assuming you haven't been at 9E for more than 2 years and have never seen a contract negotiation. If I'm wrong, I apologize again.
For the record, I've been at Pinnacle for 3.5 years and paid very close attention to the negotations and TA at Mesaba. I'm not saying that we will be flying 70-90 seat jets for someone, I'm just saying that that's what management wants and they might as well not even bother bidding until our CBA is settled.

We are currently the lowest cost RJ provider in the country. (Yes, even cheaper than Mesa) Even with a new pilot CBA, the rest of our costs are so far below the rest of the industry that I think it's possible for us to bid for other flying successfully. We'll just have to wait and see.
 

Monster Buck

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We are currently the lowest cost RJ provider in the country. (Yes, even cheaper than Mesa) Even with a new pilot CBA, the rest of our costs are so far below the rest of the industry that I think it's possible for us to bid for other flying successfully. We'll just have to wait and see.[/QUOTE]

Ok I'll bite. I know you have some work rules to better but how are you cheaper than Mesa? I haven't put the two contracts up against each other but I was under the impression you guys were already way ahead of Mesa.
 

blackbox

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Monster Buck said:
Ok I'll bite. I know you have some work rules to better but how are you cheaper than Mesa? I haven't put the two contracts up against each other but I was under the impression you guys were already way ahead of Mesa.
Maybe on the capt. side. But as far as FO pay goes, we are the lowest. I was surprised to see that we were paid less than mesa, too.
 

dondk

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Last I heard sections 19/20 were still being dealt with. Without those sections it makes moving on a bit more difficult. I don't think we have hit any meat and potatoes sections (yet) and with BK and other NWA developments where is the motivation tomove quickly now?

Even if NEWCO becomes a reality, I can see a LOA to deal with it now. That is why we have had 3 or 4 LOA's during section 6. Short term goals, not long term answers.

We are NOT cheaper than MESA, but we are close. We have a few work rules they don't have and a better completion factor.

We have/had NWA paying most of our necessary costs (at a discount), MESA is all out of pocket, if you factor that in, then we are cheaper than MESA.

It is well known that the kool aid in nonconnah is filled with 70/90 dreams and our and the FA's CBA are the road blocks from making it happen. Regardless, we are in no postion (staff and company wise) to deal with anything more than what we currently regardless of how "Cheap" we are.
 
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