Falcon 7X - Who's Getting Em'? Impressions?

[volunteer]

I am not exactly sure where it is that he's pointing out anything other than the realities of the aircraft in question. The fact remains certain creature comforts are essential on an intercontinental aircraft that's going to be airborne for 12 hours. A capable galley and crew rest area are must haves.

And by the way, if you claim Dassault is targeting a "niche" in the market between those considering a Challenger or Hawker 4000 you're sorely mistaken.

Read it again. It is not ones between Challenger and the 4000. It is those between the Challenger and the G550, etc. The Hawker 4000 is in that category. I think you and G200 are from the same tree. Read it again. Read the whole thread again. Step slowly away. Read it again from afar. Absorb the content. Continue stepping slowly away. Breathe deeply as you are stepping away....absorbing content.....stepping away....

I am not claiming anything. That is where I have been told the majority of the clients scheduled for delivery are. "Scheduled for delivery" meaning already bought one....meaning can be categorized since they have already bought one and are in that range between wanting something between a Challenger and G550.... Absorb...step away slowly....breathe deeply... absorb...

What difference does all of this make anyway? Are you buying one to?


fly4kix, I just saw your post pop up. So I'll go ahead and entertain you too. As far as me being the reason people have left this board, If you will notice, I have a grand total of 50 something posts after being on this board for some time. That means that I don't post alot. I only post on here when someone is rambling about something they don't know about (like you in this particular case) or if I need some info.

Just because G200's company has an airplane on order does not make him an expert. Did he do the actual ordering of the airplane? If not, then he has even less info probably. If he did, and did not order the configuration to suit his needs, then that is his fault. If the 7X does not have the range or creature comforts that he needs and he ordered it anyway, then that is stupid on his part. Just because an airplane is on order does not mean someone can get on here and question everything about the airplane and the sales people and everything else related and act like they know everything about everything with no basis other than they have an airplane on order. If you will read back....and absorb... I did not say anything about creature comforts. I was talking about the airplane operation.

H25b-you just popped up again. As far as I have heard the majority of the first ones scheduled for delivery were being delivered in the low to mid thirties. I am sure you could get one amped up to $50M if you wanted. But you are right, the FBW is awesome.

 

[rice]

Read it again. It is not ones between Challenger and the 4000. It is those between the Challenger and the G550, etc. The Hawker 4000 is in that category. I think you and G200 are from the same tree. Read it again. Read the whole thread again. Step slowly away. Read it again from afar. Absorb the content. Continue stepping slowly away. Breathe deeply as you are stepping away....absorbing content.....stepping away....

I am not claiming anything. That is where I have been told the majority of the clients scheduled for delivery are. "Scheduled for delivery" meaning already bought one....meaning can be categorized since they have already bought one and are in that range between wanting something between a Challenger and G550.... Absorb...step away slowly....breathe deeply... absorb...

What difference does all of this make anyway? Are you buying one to?


fly4kix, I just saw your post pop up. So I'll go ahead and entertain you too. As far as me being the reason people have left this board, If you will notice, I have a grand total of 50 something posts after being on this board for some time. That means that I don't post alot. I only post on here when someone is rambling about something they don't know about (like you in this particular case) or if I need some info.

Just because G200's company has an airplane on order does not make him an expert. Did he do the actual ordering of the airplane? If not, then he has even less info probably. If he did, and did not order the configuration to suit his needs, then that is his fault. If the 7X does not have the range or creature comforts that he needs and he ordered it anyway, then that is stupid on his part. Just because an airplane is on order does not mean someone can get on here and question everything about the airplane and the sales people and everything else related and act like they know everything about everything with no basis other than they have an airplane on order. If you will read back....and absorb... I did not say anything about creature comforts. I was talking about the airplane operation.

H25b-you just popped up again. As far as I have heard the majority of the first ones scheduled for delivery were being delivered in the low to mid thirties. I am sure you could get one amped up to $50M if you wanted. But you are right, the FBW is awesome.

Vol,
You're a major league tool. Time for you to STFU!!!!!!
You know nothing about the airplane an even less about G200. If you did, you'd know what G200 is referring to about the Galley vs. time issue. And you'd know how much interfacing he has w/ the Frenchies on behalf of his company.
Granted he does tend to slam the 900 and maybe the 7X too but 99% of the time he speaks the truth about what all of us three hole drivers know. When the spec's on the 7X first hit the street, almost all of said; too short in length and should be 6 inches wider. Time will tell, but my bet is that the 7X will suffer from chronic cabintosis on those 6000nm trips. The boss will be calling for his Global just for the extra room as will the crew since Dassault seemed to forget about providing ample room for the working stiffs up front too.
And I'm one of the guys who'd rather fly the Falcon than the Global or 550. But I do realize the shortcomings of the French. They'll have no one to blame but themselves as they have been warned by the masses but ignored the input. Performance and range means nothing to the boss if his comforts are not met in the back and the last thing he wants back there is my smelly feet getting some Z's because we had to give up the crew rest area to expand the galley.
Oh, and yes it is your type which has caused many of us to bail on FI. Do us all a favor and stay away from PPW.

 

[h25b]

Read it again. It is not ones between Challenger and the 4000. It is those between the Challenger and the G550, etc. The Hawker 4000 is in that category. I think you and G200 are from the same tree. Read it again. Read the whole thread again. Step slowly away. Read it again from afar. Absorb the content. Continue stepping slowly away. Breathe deeply as you are stepping away....absorbing content.....stepping away....

I am not claiming anything. That is where I have been told the majority of the clients scheduled for delivery are. "Scheduled for delivery" meaning already bought one....meaning can be categorized since they have already bought one and are in that range between wanting something between a Challenger and G550.... Absorb...step away slowly....breathe deeply... absorb...

What difference does all of this make anyway? Are you buying one to?


fly4kix, I just saw your post pop up. So I'll go ahead and entertain you too. As far as me being the reason people have left this board, If you will notice, I have a grand total of 50 something posts after being on this board for some time. That means that I don't post alot. I only post on here when someone is rambling about something they don't know about (like you in this particular case) or if I need some info.

Just because G200's company has an airplane on order does not make him an expert. Did he do the actual ordering of the airplane? If not, then he has even less info probably. If he did, and did not order the configuration to suit his needs, then that is his fault. If the 7X does not have the range or creature comforts that he needs and he ordered it anyway, then that is stupid on his part. Just because an airplane is on order does not mean someone can get on here and question everything about the airplane and the sales people and everything else related and act like they know everything about everything with no basis other than they have an airplane on order. If you will read back....and absorb... I did not say anything about creature comforts. I was talking about the airplane operation.

H25b-you just popped up again. As far as I have heard the majority of the first ones scheduled for delivery were being delivered in the low to mid thirties. I am sure you could get one amped up to $50M if you wanted. But you are right, the FBW is awesome.

You obviously have no clue what the hell you're talking about..

And by the way, if you claim Dassault is targeting a "niche" in the market between those considering a Challenger or Hawker 4000 you're sorely mistaken.

Now, pay close attention to the word in the quote above. To the literate that would denote the fact that I was referring to those choosing between the Hawker 4000/Challenger AND the Gulfstream 550/Global.... Now if I had been referring to those choosing between the Challenger and Hawker 4000 the quote would read something like this...

And by the way, if you claim Dassault is targeting a "niche" in the market for those choosing between the Challenger and the Hawker 4000 you're sorely mistaken.

Thanks for your contributions. You're friend is going to be an instructor so that obviously makes you more knowledgeable than people that actually operate long range, international aircraft for Fortune 50 outfits.

 

[G4G5]

When the mfr's came around asking the operators what we needed, I don't ever recall any operator jumping up and screaming "give us FBW".

Good luck to those who are willing to trust their soles to the French and FBW

A chief pilot or an AD must have some pair of brass balls to recommend a French FBW for $40 mil vs a GEX or a GG550. Not me, I love my family too much, no t even on a bet

 

[fly4kix]

I hate to put too much credit in ProPilot magazine, we all know what smut comes from them. But I would be curious to read an article a year after completions begin and see what everyones impressions are.

I have a feeling the FBW will get kudos, however, like most have said above.
The guy in the back who wrote the check is gonna be nuntoohappy when he only gets one meal on his 13 hr flight to Tokyo and has the flight crew crashed out next to him snoring and farting

We'll see..

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I guess I was a little unclear, so I will restate just for you G200. Max range meaning in the big picture of the industry as a whole, not just the 7X or that class.

Range limited for the upper echelon of the biz jets.

Have you been to all of their sales promos?

You bet your donkey they will market it at whatever is published, but their true target buyer is something different. I won't school you in marketing though. You seem to know it all anyway. The target is the Challenger types or ones considering a Hawker 4000 that are ready to go forward but not to the 550,etc. level.

I am not going to pretend to know everything there is to know about the 7X, but one of my best friends is going to teach it and bring the very first one over the pond for delivery. He has studied it at length and continues to study. I can guarantee you he knows much more than you do about it from every aspect. As happens when most pilots get together, we talk airplanes almost daily and this one has been the topic of discussion for most conversations lately. If you will notice, unlike you, I prefaced my statement with "from what I have seen....." Also, unlike you, I did not pretend to get on here and know everything there is to know. I do know a few things about it that I have learned from someone very close to this airplane. Your arrogance is sickening. I bet you are thrill to fly with. I would be more concerned with having to fly with you for 12 hours than the size of the galley.

volunteer - no, you dont know what the hell you are talking about!

dont be angry....skip your "buddy" and call Dassault. This thing is marketed against other 5-6000nm aircraft in the same price range....Global 5000s, G450s etc.

has your outfit bought any? have you been to all the Dassault promos? have you talked to buyers? do you know what they expect? - yeah.....I have.

All you know is what Dassault is feeding your "buddy" - sounds like salesman bull$ht to me!

G4G5 - dont sound old man, I know your not 60 yet!...It may be FBW but has every backup needed to safely fly if th FBW completly dies. After getting the full scoop on Dassault FBW only a moron would say "Im not getting on FBW airplanes" Its actually pretty impressive (and Im no Falcon fan) ever ride an Airbus? love your family? WTF? c'mon man wake up, its the 80's.... this technology is old.

All the french bashing aside, Im with fly4kix, 3 meals onboard a 7X with 4 crewmembers is something Dassault never thought of. They think everyone serves Rudys platters. Yeah, they do in all the previous Falcons and in Hawkers and Citations. Cabin size is simply the issue. It was something they dont consider and may be the 7Xs downfall.

This plane is selling 100+ due to Falcon loyalty and its VERY impressive operating numbers (dollar wise) the thing is simply efficient. People look at that, even at the wealthiest of companies.....wish it was not true, but its reality for many of us. No, they wont be our long range airplanes....but Dassault wants you to think that way..

again, time will tell...

 

[G4G5]

G200,

It's not an Airbus, it's a Dassult product and that's the problem.
Not that initial FBW and Airbus technology was all that impressive. I still remember seeing the Air France A320 try to do the low pass (into the trees).

Please don't preach the safety of FBW until you have lived through the growing pains of being the first kid on the block to get a low serial number Falcon Jet.

I am not that old, but I am old enough to remember when I was an A&P tech for a company that got s/n 19 and 24, from Dassault, the CEO had to be the first kid at HPN with a new 900. What a POS! Nothing worked right, the APU never started, Dassault would tell us, not our problem. That was until we sent s/n19 sideways down a runway because the "French" didn't know how to design a T/R (Falcon Jet answer,"it's not our fault, it's YOUR PILOTS fault"). I would stand next to the "old timers" and they would tell me this is the way the 50 (initially designed with no APU) was when it came out. Got to love that 200 with the reverse flow engines.

Then years later, I was on the receiving end of "we just bought 3 F2000's (all s/n's under 25). They didn't work worth a crap either. I personally remember showing up at the hanger to depart the morning my buddy had a sudden stoppage right at V1 with a full load of pax trying to stretch HPN-SJC. I watched when the tech's opened the cowl and all of those nuts and bolts hit the hanger floor like my kid dropping his Lego's out on the carpet.

Not even two months later I was on the receiving end of a complete (I forgot which side) loss of one hyd system. All I did was drop the gear, come to find out, they forgot to permaswage the hyd fitting that comes off the eng hyd pump.

No big deal but when I asked Falcon Jet Engineers, "why it required full aileron deflection to control the aircraft", Falcon Jet answer "you are an idiot, what are you talking about that can't happen".

It turns out that in certain situations that ONLY ONE leading edge slat will extend on it's own at slow airspeeds because their isn't an hyd pressure to hold it up and airspeed pressure isn't enough. I guess having one slat extend on it's own, when you are low and slow, was an acceptable design criteria for those particular engineers.

I've been stuck in Rochester MN in the dead of winter because it was actually too cold for the F2000 to operate ("Falcon Jet answer, we have never seen that happen before"). Left high and dry in the Hot Austin sun because of a massive fuel leak coming out of the right engine FCU (that was actually dangerous, Falcon Jet answer, "that can't happen") Man I could go on and on about what happens when you are the first kid on the block to receive a new Falcon Jet. Or Gulfstream..

Now you want to tell me that this time it will be different, and I am a "moron" for thinking that the same Dassault engineers will produce a completely flawless FBW system. Ok, whatever, my butt ain't getting in one until they hit at least s/n 100+. I love my family too much, I'll let all you FBO Heros work out the kinks. Oh that's right the system will be perfect from inception.

I still want to know, who were the operators that were jumping up and down screaming give up FBW. Their weren't any. The push pull tubes on a Falcon are far superior to the cables on a Gulfstream. So, why did they get rid of that system? That's a question I would love to ask a Falcon sales rep. New technology(great)? Weight? It wasn't the competition.

I don't ever recall the Ailerons, Elevator or rudder on a Falcon being un-reliable. When something works don't F with it, unless you are French.

 

[AA717driver]

I think we've determined that there a quite a few people here who know their $h!t. Volunteer, you're not one of them. Stay on the sidelines on this one.

Sounds like there may be some 7X's showing up in Trade-a-plane when something bigger arrives from SAV... Just a guess.TC

 

[volunteer]

G200,

It's not an Airbus, it's a Dassult product and that's the problem.
Not that initial FBW and Airbus technology was all that impressive. I still remember seeing the Air France A320 try to do the low pass (into the trees).

Please don't preach the safety of FBW until you have lived through the growing pains of being the first kid on the block to get a low serial number Falcon Jet.

I am not that old, but I am old enough to remember when I was an A&P tech for a company that got s/n 19 and 24, from Dassault, the CEO had to be the first kid at HPN with a new 900. What a POS! Nothing worked right, the APU never started, Dassault would tell us, not our problem. That was until we sent s/n19 sideways down a runway because the "French" didn't know how to design a T/R (Falcon Jet answer,"it's not our fault, it's YOUR PILOTS fault"). I would stand next to the "old timers" and they would tell me this is the way the 50 (initially designed with no APU) was when it came out. Got to love that 200 with the reverse flow engines.

Then years later, I was on the receiving end of "we just bought 3 F2000's (all s/n's under 25). They didn't work worth a crap either. I personally remember showing up at the hanger to depart the morning my buddy had a sudden stoppage right at V1 with a full load of pax trying to stretch HPN-SJC. I watched when the tech's opened the cowl and all of those nuts and bolts hit the hanger floor like my kid dropping his Lego's out on the carpet.

Not even two months later I was on the receiving end of a complete (I forgot which side) loss of one hyd system. All I did was drop the gear, come to find out, they forgot to permaswage the hyd fitting that comes off the eng hyd pump.

No big deal but when I asked Falcon Jet Engineers, "why it required full aileron deflection to control the aircraft", Falcon Jet answer "you are an idiot, what are you talking about that can't happen".

It turns out that in certain situations that ONLY ONE leading edge slat will extend on it's own at slow airspeeds because their isn't an hyd pressure to hold it up and airspeed pressure isn't enough. I guess having one slat extend on it's own, when you are low and slow, was an acceptable design criteria for those particular engineers.

I've been stuck in Rochester MN in the dead of winter because it was actually too cold for the F2000 to operate ("Falcon Jet answer, we have never seen that happen before"). Left high and dry in the Hot Austin sun because of a massive fuel leak coming out of the right engine FCU (that was actually dangerous, Falcon Jet answer, "that can't happen") Man I could go on and on about what happens when you are the first kid on the block to receive a new Falcon Jet. Or Gulfstream..

Now you want to tell me that this time it will be different, and I am a "moron" for thinking that the same Dassault engineers will produce a completely flawless FBW system. Ok, whatever, my butt ain't getting in one until they hit at least s/n 100+. I love my family too much, I'll let all you FBO Heros work out the kinks. Oh that's right the system will be perfect from inception.

I still want to know, who were the operators that were jumping up and down screaming give up FBW. Their weren't any. The push pull tubes on a Falcon are far superior to the cables on a Gulfstream. So, why did they get rid of that system? That's a question I would love to ask a Falcon sales rep. New technology(great)? Weight? It wasn't the competition.

I don't ever recall the Ailerons, Elevator or rudder on a Falcon being un-reliable. When something works don't F with it, unless you are French.

G4G5- Your wasting your breathe. This gang of thugs that are in this discussion knows everything about everything. If your opinion is different from theirs, then apparently that makes you the whole reason that everyone left FI, and a tool, don't know what you are talking about, etc.

 

[volunteer]

dont be angry....skip your "buddy" and call Dassault. This thing is marketed against other 5-6000nm aircraft in the same price range....Global 5000s, G450s etc.

has your outfit bought any? have you been to all the Dassault promos? have you talked to buyers? do you know what they expect? - yeah.....I have.

All you know is what Dassault is feeding your "buddy" - sounds like salesman bull$ht to me!

I say AGAIN. I was initially, and throughout this lame attack on me, ONLY talking about what is designed into the airplane ops wise. I don't give a s--- about creature comforts, etc. (don't really give a s--- about the airplane either but I will defend myself against idiots that can't read and comprehend what they are reading). So I say AGAIN for you h25b. I never said anything about people choosing between a Challenger and a Hawker 4000. I said people that are in the market for airplanes that are between the Challenger and the G550. In that spot (between the Challengers and the 550) you have the 7X and the Hawker 4000. I explained that a couple of posts ago. Please read and COMPREHEND my posts before responding. Looks like you are too busy thinking about how you are going to bash me in your next post to understand what you are reading. Sounds like bashing is more important to you.